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Post by AnneM on Jan 9, 2004 13:01:59 GMT -5
We have a difficult situation right now .. Four evenings ago my son had a friend round (a friend he has known for ages and whose family we know). The friend said he was going to nip down to our local shop. My son asked him whether he could get something from the shop for him and gave him a £10 note (I think around $15 US). My son also lent the friend his bike to go there. The friend never came back that evening! My son rang his friend later in the evening and was told he was asleep in bed. The next morning the bike was delivered back... but the friend said he had "forgotton" the £10. The following day passed ... the friend said he had "forgotton" the £10 note at school that day .... and the next day ..... Eventually my son told the friend's sister what had happened and the sister told the Mum. The Mum called me up and said that she would ensure that the £10 was returned and she would "kill" her son!! ... That was Wednesday ... It is now Friday. Today the friend (having 'forgoton' the money again at school today!) told my son to go round to his house at 3.45 p.m. to collect the money. My son did that. His mother answered the door and said that his friend was not at home ... she ALSO said that her son had told HER that the £10 had been returned at school!!!! The friend's mum is now also VERY angry!! My son has since then been trying (unsuccessfully) to get the friend on the phone ... (Phone keeps getting put down) ... My son is SOOOOO angry ... he said that when he sees the friend he is going to 'deck him' .... Now this is something my son has never ever done (he is the opposite to violent) ... My automatic reaction was "That isn't the way to solve this" ... but then I remembered another thread here about our kids MUST learn to stick up for themselves.... Also my son said to me "Mum - I am NOT going to be seen to be a mug ... I HAVE to stand up for myself" ... He also added "It might have been different in your day" ! (OUCH!!! lol!!)... Apparently we now hear that "similar" situations have occurred with this boy before! I am really not sure what to advise him here ... For his own "self-esteem" (which has always been low) I don't want him to be seen as "a mug" ... the money has obviously been spent on something else ... My son is 15 and I feel I do have to let him "fight his own battle" but I am just not comfortable with him saying he is going to 'deck' this boy ... (whether he means it or not I am not sure - it would certainly be a first-time for him ... ) ... but he is talking to me about it and I feel I need to give him some advice in the role of "consultant" ... I also don't want my own son to be seen as the "forever forgiving mug!" ... Any advice please?  |
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Post by camismom on Jan 9, 2004 13:40:10 GMT -5
This is a difficult one... I tend to lean towards him doing somethig about it... maybe not a decking, but at least confronting him and letting him know how upset he is that someone he called a friend would do something like this! Then let him know that until the money is ret'd the friendship is over, and upon it's return they can go from there. This boy loses too many friends and eventually winds up alone, he'll rethink his actions. Meanwhile, he'll see (along with others) that your son can't be pushed around.
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Post by HooDunnit on Jan 9, 2004 13:43:06 GMT -5
I would tell him to cut his losses and move on. The thing about failure in life is that it is more instructive than success. Obviously, he will learn not to let this fellow handle his money. But that person's faults will eventually catch up with him. Your son doesn't have to be the reckoner. There is a kind of law of karma in the universe -- whether a person does good acts or bad acts, consequences will inevitalbly follow. It may not be today or tomorrow. People who do bad things may get away with it for a while, perhaps quite a while. But eventually, doing bad things (such as stealing) will lead to their downfall.
On the other hand, given our ages, you could say that in your day you used to know what to do, but now you can't remember . . . .
He shouldn't worry about what others might think about him if he's been ripped off and hasn't stood up for his rights. I think that's just a projection of his own anger. If he really wants to be formidable, martial arts training will do it.
Barry
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Post by AnneM on Jan 9, 2004 14:08:04 GMT -5
Wow!! Thank you both Cami'smom and Hoodunnit!! ... This place is awesome in that within an hour of "sharing" what was on my mind today I have got two replies BOTH giving different, but really helpful advice. THANKYOU!!!
What I am going to do is put BOTH suggestions to my son ... suggest he does one or the other ... (his choice) ... I also think 'decking him' should be out of the equation though!! lol !!
As for not being able to remember what we did in "our" day Barry .... its true !! I can't remember !!! LOL
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Post by camismom on Jan 9, 2004 14:18:31 GMT -5
You are quite welcome. You have given me answers on more than one occasion! Let us know what he decides...
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Post by HooDunnit on Jan 9, 2004 15:33:18 GMT -5
I think the thing about forgiveness is that you do it for yourself. Anger is kind of like cancer. It's not that the other person doesn't deserve retribution ("You have heard it said, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth") but that the retribution isn't doled out by yourself but by God or creation or however you view things. You forgive someone for your own benefit and that you may be forgiven yourself for things and have that resulting freedom.
But really, we'd have to hear from 1mom on this one!! I'll send her an alert!!
Barry
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Post by AnneM on Jan 9, 2004 17:09:10 GMT -5
I think the thing about forgiveness is that you do it for yourself. Anger is kind of like cancer. It's not that the other person doesn't deserve retribution ("You have heard it said, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth") but that the retribution isn't doled out by yourself but by God or creation or however you view things. You forgive someone for your own benefit and that you may be forgiven yourself for things and have that resulting freedom. But really, we'd have to hear from 1mom on this one!! I'll send her an alert!! Barry This is interesting and yes its true - "We" ourselves definitely DO feel better once we have forgiven and put something behind us and got rid of the anger that was there .... I do hope 1Mom gives her opinion - I would value it! |
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Post by ohmama on Jan 9, 2004 18:23:18 GMT -5
Anne,
Here's another view to consider. Have your son go back or phone the mother of this "friend" and to ask her what she thinks he should do about it. He should also express his concern that he would not want her son to get a bad reputation and thought it would be wise to talk with her about it. He should let her know he would be upset over a friend that only thought the friendship was worth $15. This approach would express concern not revenge. I would think it would give better results than punching the kid in the nose, even though he may deserve it.
You may not know what kind of problems this kid is dealing with. Sounds like more than meets the eye.
Something in the back of my mind makes me wonder if this kid is into drugs or alcohol? What is he doing with the money? The mother should be made aware there is a problem. If nothing gets accomplished then I agree with Barry and he should just walk away.
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Post by 1mom on Jan 9, 2004 18:26:04 GMT -5
anne, i totally agree with barry here: "I think the thing about forgiveness is that you do it for yourself. Anger is kind of like cancer." as adults, we can (most of the time) see the benefits we personally will gain. the problem is that with testosterone/teen boys, other issues will interfere with his desire for that "personal benefit" LOL! our adhd'ers also have a highly tweaked sense of fairness, and who can blame them? their histories have taught them that THEY are going to be held accountable for bad choices (usually more so than other kids), and they aren't cut too much slack or benefit of the doubt when dealing with trouble at school or in the neighborhood---in their circles of friends. so, when an injustice occurs (and this one surely is!), i can understand his need to deck the offender. (why should IIIIIIIIII always be the one to get in trouble?! it's NOT FAIR!!!) my advice would be to show him how he can get the upper hand (regain control--which is another big issue for our adhd'ers), but in a positive way. tell him that he can write this guy a note saying, "we both know that i lent you $15 and that you are choosing not to repay it. but that is okay. i have learned 3 hard lessons: who i should lend money to in the future, about trustworthiness, and about honesty. keep the money and thanks for the lessons." this should give your son a way out and enable him to stick to his beliefs in non-violent problem solving. pile on the compliments and reassure him that HE is the gentleman and the adult in this situation. also remind him that this is an opportunity to teach the thief (and their peers) to use their brains/hearts, and that he will come out the winner all the way around! this sort of resolution will probably stop the thief cold, and also raise your son's estimation in others' eyes. for $15, he learned, grew, and was the bigger man, while making the thief smaller and having to continually keep trying to convince others that he didn't steal that money. silence is an irrefutable weapon, and the less he says about it, the more power he'll gain. if your son decides to do it, tell him how proud we are and that he's a wonderful example. also that we KNOW he didn't get repaid, that we believe HIM! best wishes and prayers, 1mom ps: we have saying down here; "what goes around, comes around". karma with a southern twang!  |
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Post by HooDunnit on Jan 9, 2004 18:41:03 GMT -5
RE ""what goes around, comes around". karma with southern twang!" Yes, that's the same idea. The Beatles said it with the lyric, "And in the end, the love you get is equal to the love you give . . . " Ah, the English have given so much to society. Paul McCartney's lyrics are so much about love. You know, you would think that people would get tired of silly love songs. But Paul McCartney has found that it isn't so . . . oh no . . .
Actually, if you do a search under "The Golden Rule" you will find that it is in almost all religions and philosophies and has many formulations. You can even joke about it as in " Do onto others before they do onto you!!"
Barry
PS What is with all these boxes?
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Post by Linda on Jan 9, 2004 21:03:54 GMT -5
Anne,I e-mailed you but I have to share something similar that happened to Paul.
One of his so called friends in his classroom took his spellcheck and wouldn't give it back.
ordinarily Paul would have gone to the teacher and then security would have been called,but when Paul asked for it back,the kid said ...what are you going to do about it b****? Then he shoved Paul...guess you know what happened after that...Paul "clocked "him a pretty good one!!
I think probably he (Paul) needed to save face because his peers were looking on.
The weird thing is he gets along fine with this other kid now!!!
Just wanted to share that with you. I don't condone violence but i want him to stick up for himself too.
Let us know what happens.
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Post by AnneM on Jan 10, 2004 8:18:29 GMT -5
I appreciate these responses SOOOO much ... Thank you everyone ...
Oh Mama - I like this idea and I am going to add to his "choices" ... it is also very strange you should mention drugs/alcohol. As I say we have known this boy for years and I know his Mum. When I spoke to his Mum a couple of months ago she poured her heart out to me that the son had got himself involved for a while with a "new" bunch of friends AND had subsequently got involved in drugs for a while ... (Fortunately my son was never involved in that group of friends!!) .. His mother then went on to say that she was pleased because the son had now reverted back to his "old" set of friends (which DOES include my son) and as far as his mother was concerned the drug-dabbling had "stopped" at this point .... but NOW I am wondering whether it HAS actually stopped and whether the money was used on something along these lines the other evening when this boy disappeared and didn't return!??! It seemed such an extraordinary thing to do - to disappear for a "5 minute trip" and then never reappear again and the money hasn't been seen since!! Hmmmm .... you got me thinking ...... and although what this kid spent the money on isn't in any way my problem directly - it does make me realise that this is a boy I am not too keen on my son spending too much time with (in fact he doesn't spend that much time with him at all as a whole) ... BUT it has certainly made me open my eyes in dealing with this boy!!
1mom ... your input was so much appreciated! ... your comment about our adhd'ers and their highly tweaked sense of fairness really rang soooo true !!! ... My son gets SOOOO uptight about things he considers unjust or unfair!! ... Oh YES I can relate to that so much!! ... I also love the idea of making the "thief" feel small and stupid!! ... I am going to put this one forward to Sam too !! ...
The trouble with my son (is this an adhd trait do you think?) is that he is SOOOO trusting of people .... one of his other friends (a proper friend!) said that he is like our black labrador dog - he trusts everyone and tries to keep everyone happy with him!! ... and basically I think the underlying message was that my son needs to "toughen up" or he will get taken advantage of (which is exactly what has happened here!!!) ...
Linda - this example of Paul and the stolen spellchecker certainly hits home as a similar situation ... and the thief in Paul's life was really "taunting" him leaving Paul with absolutely NO choice but to clock him !! ... Also interesting that they now get on fine .... Do you think this is because Paul gained the other guy's 'respect' by actually 'doing something' about it ??
I love the idea of karma - and the fact that you will get out of life what you put into it ... I want to read more on this subject ... & Barry I also loved the analogy with Paul McCartney .... & yes Wow!! Didn't those boys from Liverpool have a huge effect on so many people?!!
Thanks so much everyone - I will let you know what he eventually decides to do ... the "friend" has gone to ground and is ignoring all calls from my son ... My son has now stopped trying to call him BUT they WILL see each other at school on Monday .... I just hope that IF Sam was to choose the 'decking' solution (or like Paul ends up with no choice BUT to choose the decking solution) that he won't do this at school ... because I can well imagine what the school would say about it!!
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Post by Linda on Jan 10, 2004 9:01:06 GMT -5
Anne...I hope it doesn't happen in school too.I hope they work it out before it comes to "blows".
The schools are very strict here with the"Don't touch" as I am sure where you are the same rules apply.Usuall it is an automatic suspension...in Paul"s case he didn't get suspended...just talked to because the other kid had a terrible reputation for starting fights,but you can bet we talked to him when he came home from school because it could have went the other way!!
I asked him if he could have done anything differently...and he said no because if he hadn't defended himself,the other kid would not have let up.
Also ohmama makes a very good point,that money could have been very well spent on drugs.Always something for us to be worried about and concerned.
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Post by HooDunnit on Jan 10, 2004 13:36:46 GMT -5
RE "I asked him if he could have done anything differently...and he said no because if he hadn't defended himself, the other kid would not have let up." I think that a person needs to defend themselves. Otherwise, they can end up injured or even killed. Paul was pushed by the other kid (as well as taunted). That changed the situation. Physical contact is a form of intimidation. If that happened to my son Robin, who is now a purple belt in Hapkido, he would first give the other person a warning, " Don't touch me again." Then if he were pushed or hit a second time, he would counterstrike. Unfortuanately, this has to happen. Some people don't heed warnings. And I think that a person has a right to defend themselves, their family and even their country. Sometimes self-defense means going on the attack, as with the current war on Iraq. But you have to defend yourself in these ways, or you will be hurt or killed. And noboby wants that for themselves.
A couple of weeks ago, an Asian boy punched Robin in the back in the boys' restroom at school. He shouldn't have done that, as Robin had warned him a couple of weeks previously not to touch him. So Robin counterattacked and the boy was apologizing for the rest of the day. He was quite a large boy, about as large as Robin. But being Asian, maybe he didn't understand the cultural cues. But he became very frightened. He thought Robin was going to kill him. And one poor boy on a toilet left in a big hurry.
A couple of months ago, Robin put a boy in the hospital's emergency ward for five stitches. That was too bad but, as I say, it can be tough out there. The world is not always a nice place.
But I think that if you're going to use physical force, you should use it from the standpoint of self-defense. You shouldn't base your actions on anger or pride. Those emotions can help you in small doses, but they are not good grounds for doing anything that involves force. It's better to be more calculated than that.
When you can walk away from something or laugh it off, it is even better. A smile can go a long way.
Barry
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Post by Linda on Jan 10, 2004 13:48:22 GMT -5
I agree with you Barry...but sometimes it is very hard for someone to walk away,especially our ADHD kids.Wouldn't it be nice if we lived in a less violent world?  |
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