teacher aggravation

[Zotz]

Sometimes it seems like the teacher is purposely trying to trip up my child. The class has spelling tests about every other week, he's in 4th grade. It's not on the same day each week, which is problematic because we usually don't know when the test is.

They have a list of 20 words. 5 of them are new words, 15 are "should be always spelled correctly from previous years" words. And, so we only know 5 of the 20 words for the test. The rest of the words are chosen from a list of 300 or so "previous years" list.

Now, this has been so troublesome for my kid. He didnt' receive the pack of Spelling information when he started school. It was given to another kid accidentally, so for the first 2 months, we were SO confused about these tests! And, the teacher would tell us she home practice tests, why didn't I receive them, and I'd ask my son, and I'd ask her, and it was deemed that his desk needed to be cleaned out! But, the crucial packet of information was found in another students desk, it had been given back to the wrong student.
Anyway, so they take their Spelling Test, and then afterwards, they learn the new 5 words for the next Spelling test, which might be a week to two weeks later. Where do they write these words? On the back of their current Spelling Test. Then, they turn in the Spelling Test, the words are on the back of the paper they need to study for the next one, and when their test is returned, they'll know what their words are.

All graded papers are returned in a Grade Folder. This week, I had a major roof leak in the house, had to shift everything out of my office quickly. I did so, and the grade folder was buried in the "office dumping room". So, it didn't get returned. The teacher emailed yesterday, I told her I have it. My son had nothing to do with it. Today, she returned all the papers for the Spelling test that is tomorrow! But, because my child didn't have his grade folder, he didn't get his papers back. So, how was he to STUdy?! How is he supposed to know the 5 words???

I was home sick when he came home. I went right over to the school and asked for his Spelling Test. She said she doesn't give back graded work when there's no Grade Folder. I explained that I had it, kid had nothing to do with the missing folder, and asked how was he supposed to study for the Spelling Test? She just said, again, that she doesn't give back work without a folder. I looked at her blankly, and repeated my question again - how is he supposed to study, and why was he not receiving his papers when it was *my* fault, not his? He was with us. If he wasn't I probably would have simply asked, why are you punishing him for my inaction? How unhelpful can she be? Anyway, I told her the folder was buried and I'd find it this weekend.

She then told him he couldn't pickup anything from his desk, in an irritated tone. And, then reminded him to get his poster and take it home. He said he needed it for his Target (gifted class) project. She cut him off and said "I asked you about it earlier today, and you said it wasn't necessary or important." And, he started to say again that it's for an unfinished Target project and he's not sure if it will be used, and she cut him off Again! to say that "we dont' have room in the classroom for the poster (it's rolled up), you need to take it home." At this point, he took one step toward his desk, and then looked at her sooooo innocent and confused (he was upset, I could tell, but she doesn't know him as well) and asked her "do you want me to get it now?" since she just told him he wasn't allowed to get anything from his desk. And, she said "yes, that's what I said didn't I?" I had to bite my lip, and I was started to shake I was getting so ticked off! And, he shrugged his shoulders and picked up the poster. Remember, he's 10. I really struggled not to cut her off, but I don't want to put her in a position where it appears to be my son and me against her. I'm trying to support her, but at the same time, I'm finding that really hard most recently.

Oh, she asked him if he was concerned about not knowing the 5 Spelling words? and, in a weak voice, he said he was a little worried about it. She asked him "why don't you ask me what the words are then?" and he said he forgot. (he always forgets, of course!) he said he was a little worried about it, but it's only 5 of the words, and there's 15 others. And, I'm thinking "so what?" All the kids should have opportunity to study for tests as much as possible.

Oh, and when we went in, she wasn't in there, so we hung out for a few minutes. I found his stack of graded papers and seriously considered taking them and leaving. They were on her desk. I thought that would be disrespectful of her though, and so I didn't. We hung out, I asked him about stuff on the walls, no big deal. But, when I looked around the room, every desk had graded papers on top of it, not in the Grade Folder or anything.. just on top, all scattered. Except one, my child's. Very strange.

I didnt' ask for his other work, and she didn't provide. My primary focus was to ensure he was able to study for his quiz tomorrow, but she ticked me off. So, on the way out I had a nice long talk with the Asst. Principal. I know it's the end of the year, but I really want him out of her class.

Oh Oh, and on the way out, the gifted teacher stopped us, because she wanted to compliment my kid! She said he's been doing really well, and he's been really getting along better socially, and he's remembering to bring back stuff when she requests it (it's organized different, and she doublechecks they wrote it down), and she was just so pleased! She also just filled out the Checklist for the doctor, so that may be why he was on her mind.

After talking to her, she's as nice as can be. And, his male teacher for Social Studies is a "silly meany". He'll speak in a godly tone, commanding "do pages 7-10 by tonight!" and my kid thinks it's silly. the Asst. principal says the SS teacher and his teacher are so similar though. We were wondering if there was a difference in teaching styles that's causing my kid to zone out and daydream more in her class than all others. If she's cutting him off all day, and giving the attitude she gave while we were there, I know exactly why he's zoning her out! D'uh!

I have to go back to the school tomorrow to pickup the ADD checklists.

[rosyred45]

my my my, oh what a web we weave. Isn't it ironic that you have 2 TOTALLY different teachers that treat you the same way they treat the kids?

One unprofessional, talking down to you, like your the child.

The other complimenting your child's work ethic and performance.

Well, I know which one I would listen to if I were a child. And you see that too. It's just a shame that it's this far into the year.

Not to side with the teacher, but the point she has about the no folders no papers.....is that to make sure that the papers go into the folder and go home instead of getting jammed into the desk? My kids have infamously messy desks and to avoid a "paper hangout" maybe that is why the teacher has that rule into place. Although, she could have handed YOU the papers instead of leaving them her the desk.

I had to reread, but I would have asked my kid to go wait outside of the room whilest I asked her why she is telling him 2 different things. First she says not to retrieve anything, then she says to, them she says isn't that what I told you.??

Well, I'm not sure if I am raising my kids properly, but right then and there, they would have told her themselves that she just said to not get anything. Not out of dissrespect, which it would sound like, but out of HONESTY.

They call me on things around here all the time.
kids-Didn't you just say.........
me-yes I did, but I changed my mind.
kids- so this is what you want me to do?
me-(whatever the answer happens to be)

It's not dissrespect in my eyes, it's clarification. Myabe that's what that teacher needs a lesson in.
Kaiti

[Eye]

OMG ZOTZ!!! Reading this had ME shaking!!! What a horrible teacher!! I definately would have asked my son to leave and told her a thing or two!!! She reminds me so much of my son's teacher!!!!

I think you definately did the right thing and asking him to be transferred!!! Good for you!

Yes, I totally agree that the difference in the teachers makes a HUGE difference in the kids' reactions.

That's why my son's self esteem is so low this year! I just know it! I'm not having him transferred out of her class at this point, but I'm definately going to stay totally on top of all the work that comes and goes!!

Even if I have to talk to THAT WOMAN every day....

Thanks for sharing this, it just confirms how I feel about what's going on with me!

[Jorgy]

Why is it that some teachers need to put themselves in a power struggle? They are there to TEACH. Refusing to help a child learn and putting obsticles in their way is not teaching. You son sounds like he is scared to death of her. I would be too if I were him. You were right to talk to the assist. principle but I would ask that something be done and inform you on what has been done. Maybe that teacher's contract should not be renewed for next year. Sounds like he/she should be teaching prisoners instead of children.
If a teacher will not work with the parents and each other as a team member for the good of the child then they are not a good teacher. The parent is the head of the team. We are the consumer and pay the teacher's salary. They had better da## well remember that!!! Witchy Sue

[tridlette]

I would fly my Witchy Broom right into her class room and sit there through the whole day, and interupt her every time she started to be rude to anyone!

Who was it last year that hid in the teacher's closet with a tape recorder? Was that you, Sue, or was it MillerMom?

I think the best thing you can do now is send her a written letter, keeping a copy for yourself, documenting what was said in her room. "Thank" her for meeting with you and returning the incomplete poster, and make sure you document that your child requested his spelling list to study and was denied because you had an "Act of God" disaster at your home. (Had the house burnt down and the folder lost, would she still have refused?)

Carbon copy the letter to the principal and the school superintendant. Let her know that you are watching her, and you are not going to sit quietly by!

Then go to the Parent Faculty Club or PTA or whatever type group your school has and ask ALL the parents how they would deal with this situation. It will get you noticed. That is a GOOD thing. Once your name gets out, they will notice you. I actually became president of the PFC and they teachers bend over backward to keep ME happy, and therefore treat my son's with extra care.

Sue and I found out that you DO NOT need a permit from the FAA to fly a witch's broom through the school office! We are willing to lend you our spare hat when you need to use it.

[Jorgy]

:oHid in the closet with a tape recorder!!! That is an all time classic and I missed it! It must have been Millermom. I love it! ;D Fortunantly I have never been pushed that far. We are at a perochial school and I have threatened to send my kids elsewhere if 2 certain teachers returned the next year. Many other parents also did this and yalah neither teacher was back. I hate to do that to somebody but I also can't have my kids self esteem and education be at risk. If the teacher won't work with you in a reasonable manner then you have every right to take further action and as tridlette said, the more parents complain the better chance you have at getting something done. Good luck and feel free to borrow the hat and broom, Sue

[babytay]

wow this is really a mess. that teacher is not right at all and she doesnt sound like she wants to be bothered at all. I was shaking myself as i read your email and thinking I hope she goes to the principle on this lady. I hope they try to help you with this. I would have had to say something to her right then and there I think you are very strong because it is hard to sit by and wait for the right time to address something like this.
I have had teachers single out my kid to . I think that is part of what we all go through with our children. I think now that so many children have adhd and other problems these teachers should be required to take certain classes that help deal with adhd, being kinder and understanding to children and parents.
I wish you luck and it was nice to read that he is having progress with one of his teachers.

[Zotz]

I was tossing and turning most of the night. There's was something niggling at me that I didn't remember when I wrote my message, I think.

When we were in the classroom alone, kid was talking to me normal, actually pretty babbly, showing me various things since I don't go there much. He wanted to show me how neat his desk was (and it actually WAS!!!), and there were no scattered papers in it. We talked about the homework assignments on the board, I asked him if he wrote them down in the agenda, and he had. He was quite babbly. There was a photo of an electric meter on the board, because they had been studying that a couple weeks ago. He talked about that, and how cool it was, and that it looked like ours, etc. I mean, he was downright babbly, happy babbly.

When the teacher came in, and this is what kept me up all night, things changed. When she asked him "were you concerned about the words, kiddo?" (like it matters to me whether he's concerned or not... he should have the benefit of the same study materials all the other children do.) But, when he responded, he was wimpy. He spoke to her very quiet and very low, and just so puny. And, then she cut him off mid-sentence. Everytime he spoke, same thing.

On the way out, as I said, another teacher stopped us... he was all the sudden babbly Again! Granted, we were talking about fun Target stuff like the puzzles and games, but he was normal with her. She got right in his face, too, which would have made *me* a little stand-offish (violation of personal space and all), but with him, he just kept on talking and had no problems.

When I was getting ready this morning, it hit me, he's afraid of her. I *know* he is. He doesn't know what to do, and he's afraid of her. I don't know why exactly, but I have some ideas. I don't think she's scaring him on purpose at all. When I've asked him so many times, did you ask for your spelling words? He says he forgot. I think he's subconciously avoiding her. And, even though I ask him Every Single Day "did you take your agenda to your teacher to have her initial it?" the answer is always No. Why? "I forgot." He's avoiding her. I realize that more and more as I write this, there's so many things that I can look back on and realize he may very well be "choosing" not to do things because he's avoiding her, and would that come across as spite??
But, then there's the comment about it being a "test day and quiet with no talking all day" and how wonderful that will be.. from him. Is that because she's speaking to them with such irritated disdain every day? Or, is it that he really doesn't like the constant chatter? He prefers to work independently, though. So, maybe that's why. Less teacher involvement. But then that goes back to... avoiding the teacher? He excels in every subject except hers - English, Reading, Writing. He reads way above grade level, yet receives bad grades in Reading, in her class.
I'm babbling again. I hate starting these messages. Halfway through, I realize something and then I can't stop babbling.

I went to the school to pickup the checklists this morning, and really struggled with not removing him for the day. I want to talk to him, and I dont' want him to be afraid of his teachers. He was suspended one time, when he reacted before thinking to someone hitting in him in the head with a basketball. He said I'm going to kill you (very quickly, before thinking, like I would say it to him (or anyone) after startling me or something... ), and although he's never been in trouble before or since, the girl knew the context, the teacher knew the context, but her parents demanded he be suspended. When I came home from work and found out about the suspension, he was afraid of my reaction. That is the *only* time I have ever heard him talk wimpy or puny or weak. He talked to her the same way, and that really freaks me out.
OMG! another thought. he begs and pleads for me not to say anything to this teacher, but he has never done that before. anytime there's something *I* feel I need to address with the teacher, he tries to talk me out of it, saying that he'll handle it. (usually it's forgotten work, misplaced test, confusing instructions, something simple).. but he doesn't handle it.
(btw, his punishment for getting suspended was really punishment for "reacting before thinking". I made him research zero tolerance policies and who they've hurt all across the nation, and he was so upset for all these kids (many just like him) that were suspended, even expelled for taking things like "nail clippers with a 2 inch (filing) blade" on it accidentally to school. he's more careful now.) And, the school changed their mind about the suspension halfway through it, and he was welcome back. I kept him out. I really didnt' wnat him back in that school, it was kind of a ghetto school that he was in for about 2 months.

But, all the time I've known him, I've only heard him talk that way twice. About a month ago, I had a talk with the school counselor, she said that she knows the teacher in question is trying to help kiddo, and that she says good things about him. I mentioned that to kiddo, and he laughed loudly and said, "yea right! she totally hates me!" since i've never heard him say such a thing, i asked him more about that, and he finally said he was just kidding. but now i wonder if he really thinks that, but doesn't know how to explain it.

after letting this churn in my brain for too long last night, I'm so upset. I've thought about the tape recorder idea, but I don't know how I'd secretly do it. It has to be without kiddo knowing about it, and I'm just not sure that's possible.

And, the checklists. I have them now.
They all agree that he has problems with organization, following the directions, forgetfullness, etc. Almost all he agree that he leaves seat in classroom (that's news to me). And, almost all checked these 4 items as occasional problems:
loses temper, actively defies or refuses to comply with adult's requests or rules, angry or resentful, and spiteful and vindictive. One of them put that he is spiteful and vindictive often.
I can see the losing temper, he gets so aggravated in social situations (he really doesn't like kids his age, prefers adults). That's why he's in the "social club" with a bunch of other kids and the guidance counselor. and I can see him refusing to cooperate, but I can also see a teacher thinking he's refusing to cooperate, such as the teacher yesterday in the classroom. plus, i've tried to teach him to think on his own, and not just blindly do what any adult tells him. So, him "refusing to cooperate" doesn't bother me any at all. Angry and resentful, I can see too, he doesnt' want to be here, he's been rather vocal about it. He wants to go back to WA. I can't see spiteful and vindictive at all. Not even a little bit, I don't see it at all.
And, all of but one agree he is unhappy. The one that doesn't see the unhappy is the Target teacher. But she checked all of the Attention type stuff as problematic, and chose angry and resentful, but she put that he is fearful, anxious, or worried, and easily embarressed, and afraid to try to new things (which i totally agree). She doesn't see the 'spiteful and vindictive' either. Interesting.
Very interesting.

To me, I think the Target teacher is the one that most accurately matches my views, except I do think he is unhappy. But, she only sees him one day a week, for the whole day.

I'm sorry this is so long.

[camismom]

This really got my blood boiling as I read it.

Sounds like you really have your hands full. I can certainly see why your child would be angy, resentful, etc. If the teacher talks to him that way in front of you, imagine how she talks when you're not around?!

Copy everything you have written here and save it, better yet email it to the school's principal, with a copy to the ap, and maybe even superintendent. You didn't say how the "long talk" you had with the ap went. Please let us know. If it went well, then I would followup with him letting him know you had more time to think about it, and you realize there is definitely a problem, and you DEMAND something be done about it. If it didn't go well, then go over his head and don't stop until something is done. Seems to me this teacher is definitely clashing with your child for whatever reason and therefore making your child miserable. My dd had a very similar experience last year and I didn't stop until she was transferred to another class. That teacher is no longer teaching in our district this year. In fact, I don't think she is teaching at all. ;D

Next thing I would do is start addressing all the issues mentioned about your chilo on the checklists in getting him the help he needs for these... BUT... I'd be willing to bet eliminating this teacher would be the start of it all.

Good luck!! There are plenty of witch's hat, brooms, and the like around here for you to borrow if you need one!!

[Jorgy]

I like how you are thinking this all out and adding it all up. Now it is time to ADVICATE for your son. You are the only one that can or will. My kids also ask me not to get involved. They are scqared of the reprecussions (sp). Doesn't stop mom though. I stop at the school at all times of the day and speak with the principle if I need to. I also pick them up every Thursday and make myself available to all the teachers. If I have a problem I speak to the teacher and inform her. Get her side. I would definantly tell her that your son is not happy and to you he seems to be scared of her. She can only walk over you if you let her. If she won't listen, I would tell her that this was now going to be addressed by the "higher ups". Do you know the other parents in the class? Are they noticing a problem? Can they talk to their kids? This can all be handled without your son even knowing. BTW, I would also speak to the teacher about singling him out and your concerns about that and warn her that you are listening to what he tells you. I have also found that the more I'm at the school the more people I meet and get to be friends with. This makes it eqasier to keep in touch with the "pulse" of the school and what is going on. Being involved there is the best way to stop problems before they start but not everyone can do this. Here's the hat and broom, GO GET 'EM

[HooDunnit]

Yes, I really think your observations on your son are all excellent. Schools like this can be a horrendous. When my son was 10, I took him out of school and homeschooled him for five years. His life was at zero, so we had nothing to lose.

I wish you well with all this. Please keep us posted.

Barry

[Zotz]

I wanted to update everyone. You've all been so nice and helpful, and sometimes all I need is a sounding board to figure things out.

First, someone asked about the meeting with the Asst Principal. That meeting was on the way out of the school that same day. So, a lot of my concerns about my child and his teacher's tone with him were unvoiced because it didn't really hit me until that night. In the meeting, we talked about him not receiving his graded work back and not being able to prepare for the Spelling test. We talked about the teachers response to that, the problems paying attention in class, and how difficult it's been just to be sure he's adequately prepared for class and aware of what's going on. She said she was going to tell the teacher to start checking his agenda daily (instead of requiring him to take it to her), and she would talk to the teacher to be sure papers and information needed was provided as needed. I think I did bring up that she was "rude" to him, but I didn't go into much. And, I did bring up that she was contradicting herself, and this was hard on him. She just said she would talk to the teacher about all this, but I don't know if that has happened. She said to notify her immediately if problems continued. Since that day, though, the classes have been unusual and short. The students are completing the statewide tests, so the whole school's focus is that. That testing is also why it's been so hard to arrange these conferences.

Yesterday, I was supposed to meet with the teacher and school counselor. The school counselor was out with an injured knee. The counselor's office left messages that the meeting could be rescheduled for today, or next week. The teacher left messages that the meeting could be rescheduled for next week. I called the teacher back, told her it was to be handled this week, and I'd contact the counselor. I met with the counselor this morning, with no teacher. Teacher is doing the testing, so I knew she wouldn't be there. The counselor was actually very nice and I can see why my child likes her. We talked about everything under the sun, I think. 2 hours. I'm still processing the meeting.
A couple of interesting things to note:
- "the teacher has a dry, sarcastic tone"
- several students have asked their child be removed from one class, into another. they're specifically asking to do the opposite of my child. They want to go from Mr.. C (the military teacher) to Mrs.. Q (the problematic teacher). But, with my child, he sees it differently. Mr.. C treats everyone the same, and Mrs.. Q doesn't. That's huge to my kid. Mr.. C doesn't like anyone, whereas Mrs.. Q doesn't like him. He's had Mr.. C for all Social Studies and a month of Math, so he has more experience with Mrs. Q (only 5 months total). He thinks Mr. C (and his military ways) is silly, which I was told should be kept quiet as Mr. C would be offended. haha.
- since I wasn't at the school all along, I've missed some crucial things.
1. *parents* and students aren't allowed back to the school after, to pick up things. I told her that was ludicrous. The school should have an open door policy, and I'd tell the principal the same thing. And, in any case, one rule cannot be used in all situations. in the case of last Thursday, that should be looked at with some common sense to see that the rule was not intended to be used to hurt the students. In last Thursday, to apply the rule is to say that the child had some control, some responsibility that he didn't accept. But that's not the case. Last Thursday was a case of the teacher attempting to misuse the rule to her advantage, through no fault of the child's. The intention of the rule, as I heard it originally, didn't include "parents" and was meant to teach responsibility for the students. IE - I should be responsible enough to take my Science textbook home because there is a Science test tomorrow. And, if I forget, I'm lost - I can't go back into the school to retrieve it. That's how the rule was intended.
2. the school is big on teaching "responsibility". to that end, they use "parenting with love and logic" as a tool. And, I immediately recognized the book and realized that I had read the reviews on Amazon before and it scared me!! the examples from the book on Amazon were just freaky. I would never do that to my child. Anyway, so we argued that a bit, and agreed to disagree. She saw nothing wrong with the book, and I asked her if she had a copy I could borrow. She did not, already loaned it to someone else. She did check, though. You all have probably already heard of it. I did not like the reviews one bit, and had no desire to read it. Now, I do though, if only to defend my stance better. That's a matter for the principal.
There is another book "teaching with love and logic". A couple of week's ago, the teacher went home early for the day and didn't return the next. Another teacher told all the students she was "tired of their talking and behavior" and so she left. Is that something that would be taught in these books? I thought both the teacher leaving and the 2nd teachers (Mr. C!) response to the class was inappropriate, and I had hoped that Mr. C was joking.
3. the rules, such as the responsibility reinforcing and the non-open door policy are not likely to be changed. if I don't like them, not to sound flip or uncaring, but I might want to seek a different school. So, hmm. Is the district going to allow my child to cross school boundaries? Highly unlikely. That's a battle I'll continue to fight. I could have been insulted by the comment, but I really wasn't. She's got a point. It's part of the school.
4. Much of this was covered at open house, and I wasn't around then.

She said my child is doing really well in her 'social skills group' but it hasn't carried over into the classroom yet. It has carried over into the smaller Target class, though. She said he's extremely aware of others emotions, more than she suspected. And, much of his problem is getting him to S l o w down to respond accordingly. He doesn't react on what he perceives, and that's most of his problem dealing with peers. But, with adults, he's great. Also, she said, he has absolutely shocked her by taking on the leader role in the group. He's trying to be a mini-counselor, I think, and he's really enjoying the group. The kids respond to him well, too! And, so she's very happy. But, it seems to have confused her a little, because at the beginning of the sessions, she pegged him as the one to "shutdown" and stay in his shell. (like he is in the classroom). She couldn't stop talking about how different he is compared to what her initial thoughts were, and how accurate and interesting his perceptions are. She seems genuinely pleased with him and/or his progress, and like I said, I can see why he likes her.

We talked about the hateful tone. She doesn't believe Mrs. Q is aware of it. I agree with that. I do believe, however, that Mrs. Q is intentionally making the problem worse by picking on him. She didn't deny that it's happening, she didn't agree, but she saw my reaction (I was getting all shaky and teary again, from anger I guess) when I recounted the day to her, and realizes there is a serious problem. She was very understanding of my concerns, and I truly believe she's going to address them. She offered the suggestion of having his class changed. I almost leapt out of my chair in agreement! She wants to pursue that before considering other alternatives. She is going to talk to my son on her own, alone. That is fine. I stressed that she handle it alone, because I'm concerned about him being intimidated. And, I repeatedly stated, that I did not want him and Mrs. Q to be involved in any "conferences" or "meetings" any longer. I told her I felt like Mrs. Q was manipulating him against me, the parent, and that was absolutely inappropriate. I even got rather Loud and Commanding about that point. To drive home that point, I related the various questions she's asking him over the past months and why those were asked. She thinks Mrs. Q's comments are being taken out of context because I didn't go to the Open House and learn about the school's policies on personal responsibility for students. That's what led to the discussion in which we talked about "love and logic" parenting, and the school's philosophies, and why this might not be the best school for my child. I stood my ground on that, and I will to my dying day. This school is the neighborhood school, he can't just "switch schools". These districts don't have open enrollment. No teacher should be using the child against the parent. I don't care what the school's ideas on responsibility are. So, I don't agree with the 'out of context', but again, we chose to disagree.

She's going to return to me with an answer within a week. If they can't change the classes, they're going to pull me, the teacher, principal, and counselor into a meeting.