Update on your supplement holiday catatonic??

[AustinsMom]

Catatonic, (or anyone else with thoughts on this)

I know you took a supplement holiday and were starting back with omegas and magnesium and adding things in one at a time. Just curious how things have gone since then. Did you find one item that was causing problems for you?

We just got back from a weeks vacation at the lake and ended up bagging supplements for the last 5 days cause I felt we needed to so we could all feel like we were on vacation. (As Austin said, taking the vitamins was taking the V out of vacation for him....don't know where he came up with that, but it has become a new phrase in our family this week.)

Well.......his behavior has slowly improved till by the last several days he was noticeably better. He is less irritable, less negative, less squirelly/goofy, and eating better at meals. He frequently is not hungry at mealtimes, then starved an hour later. I had thought this was behavioral, but all of a sudden he is eating much more at meals.

But of course this all raises many more questions than it answers. Looking back, I can clearly see his behavior was better before we added the last few Pfeiffer things. (B12, methionine, glutathione) We added them one at a time for a month before adding the next, and at the time, I felt like I didn't see any differences. But I have done that before--like I thought he tolerated the B 50 fine when I started and it was only later when I stopped it that I saw what a difference it made (in a negative sense). We have also started using enzymes from Houston Nutraceuticals the past several months, so need to check those out too.

It has me going back to where you were some months ago, and thinking a supplement holiday is good. We are now taking only the omegas. I don't feel like they can be part of this and I want to continue them (does that sound right to you??) So I think I'll continue here for several weeks and get a good behavioral baseline. I'm thinking the calcium/magnesium will be the first thing to add since I don't anticipate problems with it.

Thanks for your help in advance--your info is always helpful to me.

[catatonic]

Isn't it weird how changes can creep up on you so gradually you don't notice until you take drastic measures like cutting off all the vitamins? This is very interesting. We had a totally different experience when we stopped the supplements. Challenge Boy's behavior slowly started deteriorating, until by July, he was pretty much unbearable. Fighting all the time, out of control, mouthy, not sleeping well, emotionally unstable. It was like having that terribly difficult "before" child back again. I didn't like it one littlte bit.

I put him back on Omega-3 and Magnesium first thing. These are the two most essential, and very unlikely to cause any type of negative reaction. It took a week and a half, just on these two supplements alone, before I began noticing him getting calmer and easier to get along with. Thank God.

We are progressing very slowly with adding things back in. I'm not in a hurry, as long as he is taking his Omega-3 and magnesium. The only things he's currently taking are these, with Vitamin E, and zinc. We're not even doing a multi-vitamin at the moment. It's too hard to find one where the B-vitamins don't bother him. That will be our next experiment...to put him on the Kirkman Labs children's multi.

I find it really helpful to keep a diary of what my son eats, what supplements he's on, pollen counts, and behavior. Sometimes this will point out patterns I never would have expected if I had to rely on my own brain. I'm also forcing myself to be VERY patient and only add things very slowly...and then only those with the lowest probability of causing problems. We'll have to compare notes on which supplements work and which don't!

[AustinsMom]

I used to think this was like putting together a jigsaw puzzle....now I think it's like putting together ajigsaw puzzle while blindfolded.

I think where we are is that we have partially remediated some core areas, like with omegas, zinc, magnesium and we see a carry over of good improvement with that since we only stopped the vits a short while. However we are apparently taking something that is shorter acting that is causing behavioral problems. We have already discovered we can't take TMG or inositol or B vits, so there must be something else out there to add to that list.

I know I need to go out and get some C and E to add with my omegas--currently we get that in our compounded vits so I don't have any individual ones. Don't you find you have issues with Vit C? Any with vit E? Just wondering if there is something I should look out for.

I also need to get back on our probiotics soon to continue work on the yeast issue. Guess I may do that after we stabilize on the omegas. I still haven't heard all of the results from our Pfeiffer recheck, but I know the yeast was signif. improved and I don't want to lose ground.

But meanwhile, I am going to take a deep breath and enjoy being in a better place. This is timely, cause tomorrow school starts, and he is going to a new school this year, an LD school, and we don't need anything to increase opposition or resistance. (He's not thrilled with the change.) Thanks for being a great sounding board to help me figure all of this out.

[buttercup]

I have a pretty sensitive stomach and I can tolerate this Liquid B complex. It's called Liquid Health: Energy and Stress. I get it at Henry's (health food store). But, you can also order it online. Here's the link: www.liquidhealthinc.com/products.php It tastes like orange juice concentrate. A little intense, but I can deal with it if I chase it with water.

I see that they have a product called "Attention" - I may have to look into that next time.

[catatonic]

Never had any problems with Vitamin E. I don't think there's much there to cause problems...some oil and a gelatin capsule.

Vitamin C, on the other hand, has been a real headache and I've given up trying to get it into my son. His behavior goes down hill practically as soon as he looks at it! I have to admit this worries me, since we've had to give up so many Vitamin-C-rich foods on the Feingold diet (like tomatoes and oranges).

I'm not entirely sure why my boy reacts, but suspect it is his corn intolerance. 99% of Vitamin C supplements are derived from corn. I know there are corn-free Vitamin C tablets available in the U.K., so they must be here somewhere, I just haven't found them yet. When I do, we'll give them a try.

Vitamin C is not an urgent problem, though, since it's for general health rather than ADHD symptoms. And knowing it's going to be a pain, I'm happy to leave it until last.

Have you had problems with Vitamin C in the past?

[AustinsMom]

No, I am not aware that we have ever has Vit C issues. However, Vit C is in both our a.m. and p.m. compounded vitamin, so knowing you have had issues with it, it makes me wonder.

But my gut tells me it's one of the things we added in the later months, so my plan is to do the omegas and Vit E first, then add the probiotics, then calcium/mag, then the maintenance vitamin from Pfeiffer which has zinc and a few other ingredients.

I think I will give a 2 week period for each one before I add the next. Once I begin the ones I think are more suspect I may even use it for several weeks, then stop to see if I see a difference. Time to get out the spiral notebook and log all of this to try to make some sense of it.......

[lisle]

Hi,
This is all so interesting. In a way, I am doing the same thing. I 'gave up' on Pfeiffer's plan about half a year ago and noticed the greatest change when the zinc came out of his system over about a four month period. After four months there were definitely more concerns about behavior. More oppositionality and more agressiveness.
In the past month or two we saw the white marks on his nails return also so I assume it is the zinc he is needing. I added that in the day before yesterday to the 500mg. C and the fish oils (I like the Natural Factors ones, by the way)twice a day. The zinc is 50mg. of Picolinate at night with dinner. Well, he has been resisting eating any fruit or veggies so he's had a big problem with constipation again. The magnesium would help but I have to figure out how to break the news to him. He is already looking at me very suspiciously about taking 2 or 3 vits twice a day. " I thought we stopped the vitamins." For a while I was giving him the morning vitamins from Pfeiffer, which I still have. I can swear they make him impulsive and silly. That's the one with the methionine, by the way. It stimulates serotonin and my son can't take any meds with that either without being more hyper. Same with inositol and TMG, I assume. He is having way more stomach aches, but part of it is stress from a new school starting yesterday.
I can't say I am doing very well with school starting eithr. The stress level is growing.

[AustinsMom]

The plot continues to thicken at my house.....Just when I had decided my course of action, my ds started complaining yesterday that his legs hurt. Tonight he had more complaints at bedtime, even having trouble going to sleep because of it. So I am guessing it is the calcium/magnesium he is missing? Is that what would most likely be causing his leg aches?

So, guess I will add back in the cal/mag earlier than I said. Any other thoughts from anyone?

[catatonic]

Would you say these are leg cramps? Those are most often caused by lack of magnesium, calcium, potassium or sodium. Dehydration can bring them on, too. Adding back the cal/mag sounds like the best idea. Unless you use a chewable, there really isn't much in a mineral supplement that's likely to cause any kind of behavioral reaction. We really do live in a big science fair project, don't we?

[LaurieL]

I noticed something in Lisle's post that my son has a horrible problem with and that is constipation. He is on strattera at the moment but this has always been a problem. Is there a vitamin supplement that would help with that. I want to add the omega and cal/mag in if I can find something that is not a big horse pill. I have tried some but they have always been so big I end up taking them.

[Mayleng]

LaurieL said:

I noticed something in Lisle's post that my son has a horrible problem with and that is constipation. He is on strattera at the moment but this has always been a problem. Is there a vitamin supplement that would help with that. I want to add the omega and cal/mag in if I can find something that is not a big horse pill. I have tried some but they have always been so big I end up taking them.

Laurie, try Benefibre (once or twice a week)- tasteless and not lumpy - can be added to cereal and drinks. Helped my son's constipation when he was on strattera.

[AustinsMom]

catatonic, I think it was more aching than cramping, but I think it pressed me to add some more things back in and the is probalby good. So I have modified and am doing my omegas with vit E, the cal/mag, the probiotic, and zinc. And unless something else is called to my attention, this is where I'll stick for several weeks.

lisle, thanks for the input. I hadn't thought about the similarities between the TMG, inositol, and methionine. So all of those increase seratonin? Silly (or I would say goofy) is a good description of one of the behaviors that has decreased. His maturity level has been in the pit all summer, so it's nice to see him acting more his age.

The change has been so slow in the beginning that evidently I didn't connect it to the vitamins, but am glad I'm seeing the big picture now. Thanks for your input and support with this.

[AustinsMom]

After a good week on our new vitamin regimen, I am so pleased with Austin's behavior. He is much more cooperative, less argumentative and prone to anger. Even though I don't have his full re-eval report yet, I know from talking with Pfeiffer that his copper is down from 138 to 95, and his zinc is up from 64 to 102. So now that we have taken away whatever he was reacting to, guess I am seeing the benefits of his better biochemistry.

This weekend he did something that I asked him to--don't even remember what it was--and I was shocked. Didn't realize how many times I was having to tell him things several times. So don't know how long this will last. (I know from previous experience that good things never do. ) but I am enjoying it while it does.

[catatonic]

That's wonderful news! We're having similar good results on our minimal vitamins...just Omega-3, Vitamin E, magnesium and zinc. With these kind of results, I may not add anything else. I worry about his general nutrition and would like to give him a multi-vitamin with minerals, but at this point I think I'd rather just have a nice kid. His nutritional status can just suffer for a while