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Post by RoseLady on Jul 6, 2004 11:30:06 GMT -5
Hello, new gal here. Been reading the archived threads and find them very helpful! I have three kids with various issues. My 6yo boy has ADHD, Tourette's, SID. We started a naturopathic route about two weeks ago, and are starting to see some improvements. I also signed up for Feingold, and even though we haven't officially started Stage 1 yet we have already eliminated artifical dyes, flavorings, preservatives, etc. I'm now doing some minor tweaking with the supplements and thought I'd post it here for feedback. I'm pretty much following the protocol in A.D.D., The Nutrition Solution, by Marcia Zimmerman with a few adjustments. My boy is 60 lbs. Here's the basic plan: www.thenutritionsolution.com/nutrient_table.htmNature's Way Multivitamin, 3 capsules store.yahoo.com/iherb/multivitamin.htmlRxOmega EFA, 3 capsules (total EPA 1200, DHA 600) www.iherb.com/rxomega31.htmlEster-C Chewable (250 mg Vit C, bioflavonoids), 1x store.yahoo.com/iherb/esterc11.htmlCal/Mag/Zinc drink, 1 Tablespoon (Cal 600mg, Mag 300mg, Zinc 7.5mg, Potassium 50mg) store.yahoo.com/iherb/liqcalc.htmlUltra Magnesium, 1 tablet (Mag 200mg, B-6 25mg) store.yahoo.com/iherb/ultramag.htmlWe're also doing digestive enzymes and probiotics. Would you knowledgable parents please review thjs plan and let me know what you think? Thanks in advance! RoseLady |
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Post by rosyred45 on Jul 6, 2004 16:59:24 GMT -5
WhoooooHoooooo Another Rose ;D
Welcome to the forums RoseLady, as you can see, there is a wealth of information here. I admit I am new to the natural alternatives, but I try the best I can.
Our members are very knowlegeable and diverse in their experiences. It has been amazing reading all that they know.
Once again Welcome and visit often
Kaiti
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Post by catatonic on Jul 6, 2004 19:20:49 GMT -5
Hey new gal, welcome. I think your protocol looks extremely good. I am a HUGE proponent of the Feingold program. It has been a miracle for my son. And Marcia Zimmerman's book was one of the first -- and best -- that I read on the subject of natural treatment of ADHD. The table you posted a link to, listing recommended supplements, is a marvelous resource. I'm specifically mentioning it in case it gets buried in the rest of your post. It is a good outline for a basic starting supplement protocol. If you missed it in the original post, look here: www.thenutritionsolution.com/nutrient_table.htmYour multi vitamin is excellent, very comprehensive. My only concern is that it contains a rather high amount of Vitamin A, half of which is from a pre-formed source (and therefore capable of causing toxicity from over-consumption). I'm referring to the retinol palmitate. The official "Tolerable Upper Limit" adopted for Vitamin A for a child between 4 - 8 years is 3,000 IU per day, the Recommended Daily Allowance is 1,333 IU, and your vitamin contains 8,750 IU. (Since 57% of this is beta carotene, however, the amount of pre-formed Vitamin A -- which is what you need to worry about -- is actually at 3,763 IU.) Generally chronic Vitamin A toxicity (caused by taking too high a dose over an extended period of time) is only going to be seen at long-term consumption of 25,000 - 30,000 IU per day (in an adult). Only the pre-formed Vitamin A can cause any type of toxicity. The beta carotene does not carry this risk. As long as you use this multi-vitamin, make susre you don't include pre-formed Vitamin A supplementation from any other source. Your Omega-3 is one of the best you can buy. It's a great product. Your quantities are good, too. Once you've been using the Omega-3 for 12 weeks or so (the amount of time, roughly, required to correct a deficiency) you may be able to get away with knocking it back to two capsules. On the Vitamin C, my concerns may be different from anything you need to worry about. However, it is high in salicylate content (orange, cherry, honey, it highly concentrated forms) which is not acceptable on Feingold Stage 1...and many still can't tolerate the salicylates even after completing Stage 1. There are also issues of corn-derived content, not a problem unless you have a corn allergy or sensitivity. I'm glad to see you're using plenty of magnesium. It's very important to do that. (You might enjoy the magnesium website at www.mgwater.com ) Both of the magnesium products you're using are outstanding. The rule of thumb with magnesium is NEVER buy magnesium oxide. Anything else will be utilized by your body at least to an adequate degree. Magnesium oxide is so UN-bio-available that it's pretty much useless. Digestive enzymes can be very helpful to those who need them. Same with probiotics. And if you're taking them when you don't need them, the likelihood of them harming you is pretty much nonexistent. Overall, I think you've done a really impressive job. Good quality products, well-chosen content, all the important nutrients covered. Combined with Feingold, I'd expect you'll be seeing some great results. |
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Post by RoseLady on Jul 7, 2004 18:31:53 GMT -5
Hi Kaiti, thanks for the warm welcome! Are you a rose lover, too?
Hey Catatonic, I appreciate your reply very much. I know you took a lot of time to review my list carefully and make thoughtful comments. Thank you! I found them both helpful and encouraging.
Your comment about the Vit A level in the multi concerns me a little. I think it was Marcia Zimmerman's site that specifically recommended that brand, so I assumed it was safe. Should I look for another multi or just hang with it for now? We're not supplementing with any other Vit A, so maybe it won't be a problem. Also, my almost 7yo is at the 90th %tile for weight, so maybe he can handle it.
Is there a reputable website you like that lists the tolerable upper limits? I typed those key words into google and got all sorts of different numbers.
About the Omega-3, you mentioned that I might be able to cut back to 2x a day down the road. I had read somewhere that you should strive for a minimum of 480 in DHA per day. If I cut back to 2 caps, that would make it 400 per day. Or do you feel that EPA levels are more important?
On the Vit C...you know, I never thought of the salicylates. Thanks for bringing that up. I guess one of the issues I'm trying to resolve in my mind is whether to start Feingold at Stage 1 or at Stage 2. I know it's recommended to start at Stage 1, but my rebellious nature thinks maybe the enzymes will help and I won't have to worry about it. I'm also trying to eliminate dairy, so it's a bit overwhelming.
About the magnesium, that is a helpful link; thanks! I just received my order today with the mag supplements. Should I increase dosage slowly?
Thank you, again, for sharing your wisdom with me! My family and I are grateful.
RoseLady
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Post by catatonic on Jul 7, 2004 21:08:20 GMT -5
RoseLady, Vitamin A is one of the few that can cause toxicity, which it is good to be aware of, but honestly the odds are that the amount you are giving will not cause any problems for your son unless he is unusually sensitive. The upper tolerable limits are set quite conservatively. They are the lowest level at which the most sensitive individuals record even the mildest of side effects. On tolerable upper limits and RDA's, I prefer to get my info from the horse's mouth, so to speak. (I then process it and it comes out the other end of the horse, right?  The National Institutes of Health, via the National Academies of Science, publish the data which you can find on-line at: books.nap.edu/books/0309071836/html/115.html#pagetopOn Omega-3, I think the 480mg DHA is very important. I also think the EPA amounts ought to be at least as high and preferably 50% higher than the DHA. You're right that cutting back to two capsules would put you under this cutoff. For some, once the initial deficiency has been addressed, a lower maintenance dose is sufficient. For others (like my son) it doesn't work that way and he can't cut back. If your son doesn't mind swallowing the extra capsule, just let it be. Why mess with what works, right? On Feingold Stage 1 versus Stage 2, I highly recommend starting with Stage 1. It's a pain and you sacrifice some really great foods, but if you're going to do it, you might as well do it right. The results might surprise you. I never would have guessed that grapes and grape juice are absolutely terrible for my son. I mean, they're wholesome healthy food, how could they hurt you? But they make my boy hyper and quarellsome and he only gets them rarely now (when I'm in the mood to handle his behavior). And I learned this the hard way. I tried to implement the home version of Feingold without ponying up the $70 for membership. I thought I could just read labels really really well. And I didn't want to give up tomatoes, apples or almonds. Ha ha ha ha ha. I'd see great results for a while then things would fall apart. Now that we're very strict about the program (my children call me the Food Nazi) we don't have that kind of roller coaster. With the magnesium, you definitely want to build up gradually. It's notorious for causing tummy trouble. If that happens and your son complains of stomach ache or diarrhea, you can just back the dose off a little and start working up to your target again once his system calms down. For us, Feingold and supplements are a very successful combination. Neither one alone is enough, but together they work well. I hope you get the same good results. The behavioral changes with Feingold were almost immediate, but it was a good 6 weeks before we noticed really dramatic improvement from the supplements. (Omega-3 and magnesium are the keys for us.) |
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Post by catatonic on Jul 7, 2004 21:09:25 GMT -5
sorry, posted twice somehow. i may be erudite and witty, but even i don't need to read my own words twice.
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Post by RoseLady on Jul 9, 2004 1:23:59 GMT -5
I prefer to get my info from the horse's mouth, so to speak. (I then process it and it comes out the other end of the horse, right? LOL!!! Erudite and witty, you are! I am breathing a sigh of relief about the Vit A, but will keep a close eye on him. Thanks for the encouragement to do Feingold from Stage 1. I know you're right. We just have to grit our teeth and do it. The other thing I forgot to mention is that in addition to eliminating dairy, we are also thinking of temporarily eliminating wheat and soy as well because our youngest may be allergic to them. That's why I feel a little overwhelmed. Feingold doesn't seem as tough as GFCFSF. Thanks, again, for your words of wisdom! RoseLady |
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Post by rosyred45 on Jul 9, 2004 7:32:12 GMT -5
Ok, I'll harp here a little with my experience, not great or something to write home about, but when we tried eliminating the dairy, it didn't work. Flat out. It just wasn't part of what was bugging him. So we are still trying to figure out the ins and outs. I just thought that grapes were getting better, but like Catatonic says, when I'm in the mood for the attitude, I'll give Mikey something. But he's gotten on my last nerve so far this summer, he's looking at water And yes, I love roses too. We have an old one in our yard over a hundred years old that only blooms once a year, and when it does, it's beautiful. |
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Post by catatonic on Jul 9, 2004 8:36:59 GMT -5
RoseLady,
No wonder you're feelieng overwhelmed! I know that there are a number of Feingold families who are also GFCF and always helpful about answering questions on the Feingold support board. No doubt about it, it's not an easy way to go. Your kids are very fortunate!
I know the temptation is to want to solve your kids' problems NOW, but make sure to take it nice and slow.
I think you'll have trouble figuring out just exactly what your problem foods are if you try to eliminate too many things at once...unless you are doing a full Allergy Elimination Diet.
My recommendation would be to start with Feingold for six weeks, and ONLY do Feingold for those six weeks. It's a big enough adjustment without attempting to eliminate other classes of foods as well. Six weeks is time enough to establish a new behavioral baseline. Then you choose one of two paths...
1.) Sequential single-food elimination trials. Get rid of dairy for a week, reintroduce it and see what happens. Move on to wheat once you've completed the dairy trial.
2.) Alternatively, eliminate ALL common allergens for a week and subsist on turkey and pears and rice before re-introducing problem foods one at a time, waiting a couple of days between items.
If you have Marcia Zimmerman's book, "The 30-Day Nutrition Solution" then you know she has a detailed outline for both of these approaches, including sample menus.
Eliminating all allergens and reintroducing them individually is the most effective method, but also the most difficult. If you suspect multiple food sensitivities it may be the only really accurate method. Whichever method you use, don't try to do it during the initial 6 weeks of Feingold. You also want to avoid introducing new supplements during that period. One step at a time will help you keep your sanity and help make sure you know exactly what is causing any changes you see.
I can tell you from personal experience that while diet changes seem overwhelming at first, you adjust to them, develop new habits, and it gets much MUCH easier. We are permanent Stage 1 Feingold, no corn or corn-derivatives, no MSG...which all means that there is pretty much ZERO packaged food we can eat (including cereal, crackers, store-bought bread, luncheon meats). I thought it would kill me at first. Felt like all I ever did was stand in the stupid kitchen preparing food or cleaning up. Now I'm in the swing of things, it's not a problem, and while I do spend more time on meal preparation than I used to, it's not a lot more now that I know what I'm doing.
This is probably way more than you wanted to know. Sorry for rambling on. I just REALLY like to see people succeed with nutritional treatments!!! You keep posting your questions, and keep us updated on your results too.
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Post by RoseLady on Jul 14, 2004 19:24:21 GMT -5
Ok, I'll harp here a little with my experience, not great or something to write home about, but when we tried eliminating the dairy, it didn't work. Flat out. It just wasn't part of what was bugging him. So we are still trying to figure out the ins and outs. I just thought that grapes were getting better, but like Catatonic says, when I'm in the mood for the attitude, I'll give Mikey something. But he's gotten on my last nerve so far this summer, he's looking at water And yes, I love roses too. We have an old one in our yard over a hundred years old that only blooms once a year, and when it does, it's beautiful. I'm back! I was out of town this past weekend and I think I forgot to bring my brain home. I'm behind on everything! So Rosyred, it's good to hear that dairy was not a biggie for you guys. Did you do an elimination diet to figure it out? It's good that you figured out grapes are troublesome. Are you also on Feingold? I am trying to gear us up to start soon. You've got an antique once-bloomer? Count yourself blessed! In our climate, we can't do those but I've drooled over them in my rose books often! Take care, RoseLady |
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Post by RoseLady on Jul 14, 2004 19:41:45 GMT -5
RoseLady, No wonder you're feelieng overwhelmed! I know that there are a number of Feingold families who are also GFCF and always helpful about answering questions on the Feingold support board. No doubt about it, it's not an easy way to go. Your kids are very fortunate! I know the temptation is to want to solve your kids' problems NOW, but make sure to take it nice and slow. I think you'll have trouble figuring out just exactly what your problem foods are if you try to eliminate too many things at once...unless you are doing a full Allergy Elimination Diet. My recommendation would be to start with Feingold for six weeks, and ONLY do Feingold for those six weeks. It's a big enough adjustment without attempting to eliminate other classes of foods as well. Six weeks is time enough to establish a new behavioral baseline. Then you choose one of two paths... 1.) Sequential single-food elimination trials. Get rid of dairy for a week, reintroduce it and see what happens. Move on to wheat once you've completed the dairy trial. 2.) Alternatively, eliminate ALL common allergens for a week and subsist on turkey and pears and rice before re-introducing problem foods one at a time, waiting a couple of days between items. If you have Marcia Zimmerman's book, "The 30-Day Nutrition Solution" then you know she has a detailed outline for both of these approaches, including sample menus. Eliminating all allergens and reintroducing them individually is the most effective method, but also the most difficult. If you suspect multiple food sensitivities it may be the only really accurate method. Whichever method you use, don't try to do it during the initial 6 weeks of Feingold. You also want to avoid introducing new supplements during that period. One step at a time will help you keep your sanity and help make sure you know exactly what is causing any changes you see. I can tell you from personal experience that while diet changes seem overwhelming at first, you adjust to them, develop new habits, and it gets much MUCH easier. We are permanent Stage 1 Feingold, no corn or corn-derivatives, no MSG...which all means that there is pretty much ZERO packaged food we can eat (including cereal, crackers, store-bought bread, luncheon meats). I thought it would kill me at first. Felt like all I ever did was stand in the stupid kitchen preparing food or cleaning up. Now I'm in the swing of things, it's not a problem, and while I do spend more time on meal preparation than I used to, it's not a lot more now that I know what I'm doing. This is probably way more than you wanted to know. Sorry for rambling on. I just REALLY like to see people succeed with nutritional treatments!!! You keep posting your questions, and keep us updated on your results too. Hi Catatonic, thank you for your encouraging message! Yes, I think you've hit the nail on the head with the various options and why I've been waffling back and forth on all of them. It's just so hard to decide how to proceed. As you said, I want to solve these problems YESTERDAY! I didn't mention in my original post that my middle kid has constant ear infections and yeast issues (which is why I need to eliminate dairy) and we suspect our youngest kid is on the autism spectrum. I have heard success stories about ASD kids with a GFCF diet, so that's why I was leaning that way. If I just had my older kid with the ADHD/Tourette's/SID issue, it would be challenging enough...but all three kids have issues! What's a mom to do?  I really, really believe in Feingold but I think in our case I have to go a step further with the other eliminations. I'm thinking I might do Feingold + no dairy, evaluate, then go from there. Gluten-free is really, really tough. Again, I really, really appreciate your obvious concern and helpful insights. RoseLady |
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Post by AustinsMom on Jul 14, 2004 21:45:57 GMT -5
RoseLady,
I believe DenverSarah has talked about enzymes from Houston Nutraceutical (sp???) that some have used and gotten off the GFCF diet. I use the enzymes, and like them, but we are not trying to be gluten free. If you do a search you should find a previous thread where she talks about them, or maybe she'll see this and respond. Sounds like you have a full plate of issues. Hope the FG diet helps.
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Post by RoseLady on Jul 15, 2004 15:45:28 GMT -5
Austinsmom, thanks for the heads up. I'll see if I can find that post. We've been using Houston enzymes for the last few weeks, too. I'm hoping that we can avoid going gluten-free with them, but still want to avoid milk for other issues.
Appreciate your reply!
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Post by DanielsMomNDad on Jul 17, 2004 0:16:54 GMT -5
Hi RoseLady,
Welcome, I'm new here too. One thing occured to me while reading through your posts. Have you tried TEXT for your son?
It is known to have healing effects and acts like an antibiotic. I had been hearing a lot about it and checked out a book at the health food store. I have been giving it to my 4 year old that I think has high yeast, lots of infections, and tons of warts.
Hope this helps. Take care.
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Post by DanielsMomNDad on Jul 17, 2004 0:21:28 GMT -5
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I'm trying to figure out all these buttons ;D