P-5-P question

[sierra]

If I was to add P-5-P to a supplement program that contains the basic vits minerals and efas what changes should I expect and how long should it take to tell if there are changes?

On the B vits we supplement with B-50, a good multivit and b12 already. But if B6 is supposed to help with anxiety it would probably be a good thing for both my sprouts. Both have anxiety and depression problems. One was on SSRIs a while back and the other is taking an SSRI right now. They're both on Concerta too. We're adding L-carnitine but don't expect to see anything quick or dramatic. I've never tried supplementing any other amino acids for them.

I did add N-A-C to my own program a couple years back when I was prescribed meds containing tylenol for PN and headache pain. That's under control now and I only add back the N-A-C if I have a bad spell that requires the meds.

We've tried going supplements alone for the sprouts but it just hasn't worked for us. The inattentiveness goes through the roof. And so does the anxiety. Neither has hyperactivity issues when they're on medication.

[catatonic]

Neurotransmitters are manufactured in our brains via metabolic pathways that depend on Vitamin B6.

Dr. Benjamin Feingold, father of the Feingold diet, believed that our toxic exposure to chemicals that are pyridoxine-antagonists contributes to ADHD symptomatology and that early supplementation might help reduce hyperactivity and aggressive behavior.

B6 is pyridoxine and P-5-P (Pyridoxal-5-Phosphate) is a more bio-available form of pyridoxine, but they are essentially the same. Be careful about how much B6 you use. It's caused documented side effects at amounts as low as 200mg per day (nerve damage, acne). It's safer to stay within the tolerable upper limits which are:

1–3 years, 30 mg
4 - 8 years, 40 mg
9 - 13years, 60 mg
14–18 years, 80 mg
19 years and older, 100 mg
Pregnant or nursing women, 100 mg (80 mg if 18 years old or younger)

One study compared B6 and Ritalin using double-blind crossover methodology and concluded:
"Pyridoxine elevated whole-blood serotonin levels, methylphenidate did not."
Both B6 and Ritalin were found to be more effective than placebo. Clincial and laboratory evidence indicated that the benefits of the B6 persisted even beyond the experimental period.
(See www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=497303&dopt=Abstract )

An earlier study had found similar results, with B6 supplementation resulting in an increase in blood seratonin levels:
"Oral doses of pyridoxine resulted in an appreciable increase in the serotonin content"
(See www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi? )cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1143984&dopt=Abstract

B6 is also required for the synthesis of dopamine and GABA, although these have not been as frequently studied as the serotonin. Here's an example, a study concluding that B6 deficiency is associated with lower dopamine and GABA levels:
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2761676&dopt=Abstract

None of this means that Vitamin B6 is going to help everyone. A double-blind study that compared children's behavior on B6 supplementation with Vitamin B1 found that approximately half of the subjects improved significantly on the Vitamin B6, while the other half became significantly worse. When they switched treatment groups, those who had gotten worse on B6 improved on B1, and those who had improved on B6 became worse on B1.

Another study confirmed behavioral improvement in 8 of 10 autistic children studied when they were given thiamine (B1) supplements, and hypothesized the improvement was due to thiamine chelating heavy metals from the blood:
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12195231&dopt=Abstract

Another study provides a possible metabolic reason for thiamine's effects...it increases the ability of acetylcholine to bind at receptor sites. (Molecular Pharmacology January 2004)
(If you have a child who responds well to lecithin and shows behavioral deterioration when you take lecithin out -- this describes my son perfectly -- it seems likely that thiamine could have a positive impact and work in conjunction with the lecithin to improve choline function.)

Sooooooo, what does all this mean? It means that Vitamin B6 supplementation may HELP you child, or may make them WORSE...and the only real way to find out is to experiment. A negative response to B6 should show up fairly quickly...in my boy it takes about 2 hours and he has a noticeable increase in oppositional behavior while his self-control practically disappears and he starts making involuntary noises. I cannot tell you from personal experience what a positive response would look like, because I haven't seen one!

If you do see a negative response to the B6, try the Vitamin B1 (thiamine), since according to research findings, the odds are good that if one doesn't help then the other one will.

This may be more information that you really wanted, Sierra, but I've found that the B-vitamins are both powerful and difficult to get right. Hope this helps some.

[sierra]

Thanks. It's good to hear that it's not a for sure help. I had gotten the impression that as long as we stay within RDA B6 or P-5-P could help if there's a deficiency or malabsorption problem.

I'm starting to rethink the whole idea of supplementing with a B-50 firehose. Maybe it's safer to try upping one B vit at a time so you can figure out what helps and what harms and what might just be canceling each other out.

I wish there was an alternative to playing chemist with our kids. Of course I've been grousing about their not coming with an owner's manual since they were born.

The thing that has always been kind of funny to me is that my two boys show their symptoms or present or whatever you call it in different ways. But the underneath psychological issues are very similar. Because one isn't hyperactive a lot of his issues have taken years to figure out. Like the anxiety and depression. Now that it's a full blown problem we're slapping ourselves and saying "Of course! Why didn't we see this before?"

But his younger brother was diagnosed with the same problems at age 10 instead of age 14-15. Mostly because he's hyperactive and you can see things so much more quickly when a kid has the hyper component.

There was a 2 and a half year age difference in when they were originally diagnosed with ADHD too. Same reason. With the hyperactivity and ODD you start to get curious yourself and you sure hear a lot more from others who have to deal with your kid. The first teacher who raised a flag about Li'l sprout was a preschool teacher. At age 4 I really thought it was a personality issue between them. I could handle Li'l Sprout fine at home. Then he figured out I was using reverse psychology and I've been a goner ever since.

Got a little off topic there. Next time I vitamin shop I'm going to get separates on the B vits. Thanks for the tips!

[catatonic]

I get tired of living in a human experimental lab as well sometimes. Since our kids don't come with instruction manuals, the list they could do is be equipped with an "OFF" switch!!!

If you're going with separate vities...with some B-vitamins, there is virtually no risk associated with giving even really ENORMOUS amounts (like B5) but with others exceeding certain levels can cause problems (B6 is a good example of that). You can find information on B-vitamin RDA's here:
www.feinberg.northwestern.edu/nutrition/fact-sheets.html