Carnitine?

[ohmama]

lllex,
I think I forgot to say welcome to the forums. How did you find us? I can see you've done your homework on natural alternatives.

Did the bedwetting stop when you started Feingold or what do you attribute that to?

How do you like that play attention, biofeedback? Does it help with focus?

Now this may sound like an odd question because you said he has problems with focus but, does he hyper focus on things like computer games, TV or anything else he likes to do?

Are you having any tantrum problems or meltdowns? What would you say is the biggest problem you would like to see improvement on?

I started with Efelex too and found it to work well at first then it sort of tapered off. As far as these fatty acids go I would advise the RxOmega 3 because of it being pharmaceutical grade but also the DHA and EPA is higher than Efelex. It may be a good idea to use it along with the Efelex and phase the Efelex out gradually. No sudden changes necessary.

I feel the antioxidants are very necessary. What amounts are you giving of these? Are you also giving L-Carnitine? The Tyrosine is a good idea. Don't forget the B Complex too. I have found pharmaceutical grade amino acids and B Complex at the Pain & Stress Clinic for a reasonable price. www.painstresscenter.com

Protein for breakfast is excellent. Wow, this will mean cooking in the morning before school. That's what I do and I know it's not easy in the morning rush but I am convinced it does make a difference.

I have learned so much from Cat about the importance of Magnesium. I know she will want to contribute advice in this and the other vitamin/mineral amounts. I look at the magnesium like I'm not concerned if there is a deficiency I'm trying to address a therapeutic level and that will require more than giving a recommended amount. The magnesium is necessary to make everything work better so I give it for that reason regardless of a deficiency or not.

It sounds like he has a really good teacher. This is half the battle as I'm sure you know. Do you have an IEP in place to help with any attention/focus problems? Some of these teachers can be very creative in that area. They can have certain signals for him so no one else knows he is being reminded to stay on task. So instead of being told, a touch on the shoulder could serve as a reminder. Or he may do well in a seat that is more toward the front of the class so he doesn't get lost daydreaming and is not noticed. Sometimes it is easier to pay attention if he can have more hands on activities in contrast to just sitting and listening. Like if there is story time he could draw or color rather just sit and listen. It seems to be easier to concentrate when the hands are kept busy for some kids.

The only thing I would add is to suggest you take the brain system checklist on the Dr. Amen site to get advice on what you may have missed. The test is at www.brainplace.com just click on it in the column on your left. After taking the test you will get an explanation of what is wrong with suggestions that include natural alternatives.

Your doing very well, your boy is lucky to have such a good mom! I know we all welcome you and look forward to hearing more from you.

[Kimmers]

Okay,
I guess I can give this a try, too!

1. Dx'ed ADD with hyperactivity and Oppositional Defiant Disorder

2. Most prominant symptoms include temper tantrums, meltdowns, aggression, ZERO attention span, opposition (automatic no to anything requested of him), low self-esteem, refuses to take responsibility for anything-always blames somebody else for things he does, crashing into walls, hitting himself in the head (not in anger), bed-wetting, eczema, also seems to have problems sitting up straight in his chair...forget what it's called...singulate something maybe?? For example, his handwriting improves DRAMATICALLY if he is standing next to the table writing as opposed to sitting in his chair, also has his one leg always draped over the side of his chair...let's see, anything else???

3,4. Child-6 years old, 48 lbs.

5. Current supplements being given:
*Mason Natural Brand:

a. Soya Lecithin 1200mg-1 capsule daily

b. A combination Antioxidant containing 10,000iu Vit. A (100% Beta-Carotene), 500 mg. Vit. C and 400 iu Vit. E-1 tablet given daily

c. Flax Seed Oil 1000 mg. which contains 500mg Omega 3, 200 mg. Omega 6, 200 mg. Omega 9, 60 mg. Palmitic Acid, and 40 mg. Stearic Acid-3 capsules given daily * Is this too much-how much EPA/DHA does this convert to?

d. Magnesium 200mg.-2 tablets given daily in separate doses

e. B 100% Complex-1 tablet given daily which includes 400 mcg. folic acid

f. *Twinlab brand: L-Tyrosine 500mg.-1 capsule given daily (unfortunately this was the lowest dose I could find for right now)

g. *21st Century Brand: One Daily Active Multi-1 tablet given daily (provides trace minerals)

6. No special diet in place at this time but planning on doing Feingold as soon as my tax refund comes!

Concerns:

*Am I giving him too much Vit. A, E, C or Folic Acid with the antioxidant pill AND the multi??

*Is he getting the right amount of EPA/DHA or too much?

*Is there anything I should add to increase absorption or make these things work better?

His schedule is this:

Morning-1 Lecithin capsule, 1 flax seed oil capsule, L-Tyrosine, B-Complex, 1 Magnesium tablet, 1-Multi.

Night-2 flax seed oil capsules, 1 Antioxidant, and 1 Magnesium

*Should his schedule be adjusted at all?

Thanks!
Kimmers

[lllex]

OhMama,

Thanks for the welcome, it was a long road to get here. I've spent hundreds of hours searching the internet for an alternative method to help my DS. Wish I would have found this site months ago, it would have saved me a ton of time - you guys have so much to offer here!

The bedwetting stopped prior to the Feingold diet, so I was thinking it was either the Omega or that he was just growing out of it. Of course I shouldn't have said anything, I jinxed myself.

The Play Attention is pretty cool, but we don't have in enough hours to know how much it will help. It's supposed to help with focus. I'll keep you posted if I think it's making a difference.

Yes, I think he does hyper focus. He has no problem focusing and staying focused on things he's interested in.

No tantrums or meltdowns, but he is pretty sensitive. I turned into an ogre the other morning and yelled which made him cry. I know - bad bad mom.

The thing we need improvement on is for him to do his work at school and at home without constant supervision to keep him on task, and for him to focus while he's doing that work so he completes it in a reasonable time without so many careless mistakes.

I'm not giving him any antioxidants. I think there are some in the Special Two, that I'm thinking of giving him. It also has the B vitamins. No L-Carnitine, should I add that too, have you found that to help?

Not too much cooking - he loves hard boiled eggs, so I just boil a half dozen Sunday night and he can have a waffle and an egg for breakfast during the week.

His teacher really is great. I don't have an IEP, she just does things to help him and a few others in her class that need extra help. She has them sit in the front rows of class, when they have one of the big tests she scatters desks in every direction and she makes sure that the kids that don't focus well have their desk facing the wall so they're not so distracted, and she goes around and gives the kids backs a rub occasionally to bring them back, she also copies work from the text books so they can write the answer on the paper instead of copying the problem into a notebook and then answering. She also has him do less work, say there's 20 problems to do, she has DS do 15. She's picked up a lot of little tips over the years to help kids, this is her last year of teaching.

I took the test on the Dr. Amen site, says he's ADD - inattentive type.

Thanks again for your help,

Laura

[ohmama]

lllex (Laura),
You may find that the Tyrosine helps with the focus issue and homework but that's a tuff one. You will probably need to break the work up and do it in 2 stages instead of all at once. Maybe giving an incentive to finish on time (star chart?).

Yes to the L-Carnitine.
Yes to the antioxidants (Vit C & Vit E).
See the fixed post for more vitamin tips and amounts "New To This". The information on that thread from Catatonic is something you will want to follow.

That teacher is too good to be true! What a shame this is her last year. You may want her to help write an IEP. I'm sure with all her experience and knowledge of your son she will be the best one to make suggestions for the next years teacher to follow. It's good to have this in place.

Did you find Dr. Amen's site helpful with any suggestions you could follow from taking the test?

[ohmama]

Kimmers,
I'm going to let Cat (she's smarter than me) tackle this one. The thing that jumps out at me right away is the Tyrosine. I would stop giving that because of the meltdowns, aggression, tantrums, violence, etc. If there are Temporal Lobe problems this will make it worse. It is good to use this for ADD to increase dopamine but, are you convinced the ADHD/ODD dx is correct? It sounds like more than this is going on. Even the ODD could be evidence of a Temporal lobe problem and high anxiety.

Please give the brain system test on Dr. Amen's site and see if he specifies Temporal Lobe problems in your symptoms. There is no doubt about the ADHD but this cannot be treated till those temporal lobes are under control. I think that is what is making his behavior "off the charts" if I am reading the symptoms correctly.

[catatonic]

I'll have to take a day off more often, because look at this flurry of activity on the board!!!

There are a couple of things I want to respond to, and I'll try to hit them in order so I don't forget half of them.

Kimmers, my experience has been that the lecithin makes a very real difference. A few days without it and I can see my boy's behavior starting to slip (especially his ability to concentrate). I have not had that same experience with carnitine, although I also have not seen any kind of negative reaction to it. Also, my understanding of carnitine's role is that it is more subtle, acting as an assistant to fatty acid metabolism, in which case its behavioral effects would be equally subtle.

My personal opinion is that carnitine is worth trying, as long as your expectation from it is that it will work with your other supplements to improve general metabolic functioning in the brain...kind of like the Evening Primrose Oil...not really critical in and of itself, but certainly an important part of a well-rounded and effective nutritional program. On the other hand, because its effects are subtle, you may find you do equally well without carnitine.

If you find that the B-complex is working for you, that's the easiest and most balanced way to supplement. I sure wish we could do that! You really need to consume all of the B vitamins in abundance. However, if I had to pick one to start with, it would be Vitamin B6, since it's required for amino acid metabolism and therefore construction of neurotransmitters. Many of the tyrosine supplements have B6 included in them for this reason. One interesting study showed, though, that approximately half of ADHD children will get WORSE when supplemented with B6, and these children generally improve when given B1.

...to be continued...baby crying...

[catatonic]

...baby happy again...

On magnesium deficiency despite contrary blood tests, it is entirely possible for a typical blood test not to catch less obvious deficiencies that have to do with the way magnesium is metabolized. Misdiagnosis is common (see www.magnesiumhilfe.de/documents/poster200309.pdf for one review that rates misdiagnosis at between 50 and 90%)

A German study which measured magnesium levels following supplementation concluded that serum tests were a poor indicator of magnesium level in muscle and brain tissue. ( www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9813870&dopt=Abstract )

There's a good write-up on magnesium deficiency, including a SYMPTOM CHECKLIST, at www.thewayup.com/newsletters/081501.htm and its author recommends red blood cell magnesium concentration as among the most reliable of diagnostic tools.

Here's a brief explanation of what the different tests look at from the University of Minnesota:
" serum is the clear or slightly yellowish liquid that remains after the plasma portion is allowed to clot; blood is comprised of a plasma portion (55%) and a cellular portion (45%); plasma contains water, salts, and plasma proteins (albumin, fibrinogen, antibodies) whereas the cellular portion contains red blood cells (erythrocytes), platelets, and white blood cells (leukocytes)

Don't know if any of this is helpful or not...however, given that some studies estimate magnesium deficiency among ADHD kids at 95%, and given that magnesium supplementation cannot do any harm, my feeling is give it anyway despite the blood tests.

On the Source Naturals Ultra-Mag...we used that for quite some time. I think it's a good product and the fact that it provides magnesium in a number of different forms increases the odds that it will be well-utilized by the body. That said, I should also add that it did not adequately address my son's stubborn magnesium deficiency. We switched not long ago to a magnesium chloride compound. Magnesium chloride has among the highest bio-availability of any compound. We are already seeing a decrease in the strength of his "twitch" with the Cvostek test.

I feel very strongly that magnesium is among the most important of the basic supplements, ranking right up there in the number one spot with Omega-3. If you get a chance, read the Seelig and Rosanoff book "The Magnesium Factor" and take a look at the informative magnesium website at www.mgwater.com

On using anti-oxidant vitamins, I think they are very important. Over and over, research has reaffirmed their importance in protecting the brain from toxic substances and the degenerative effects of aging, as well as helping the body fight off other diseases including cancer.

The Special Two vitamin contains 200mg Vitamin E when you take two tablets, and this ought to be sufficient. (I use the adult dose of two tablets for my children.) If you want to add Vitamin C, it's a good idea. You might want to read about it at the Linus Pauling Institute website, which also has good info on a variety of other vitamins and minerals. ( lpi.oregonstate.edu/ )

I've found from ugly experience that my boy has negative reactions to Vitamin C tablets, and just discovered that most Vitamin C is derived from corn. Since he has a corn allergy, I'm hoping that I can discover a Vitamin C derived from another source that he'll be able to tolerate.

I'm going to start a different thread on the tyrosine issue. Amino acids are a complicated area and I think it deserves its own space.

lllex, welcome. I hope you'll find as much help and support here as I have. Plenty of us Feingolders here, as well.

[catatonic]

Kimmers, you've been a busy girl, haven't you? Your list of supplements looks very, very good. I'm especially glad to see the lecithin on there...I really believes it makes a BIG difference to my boy to take lecithin every morning. Combined with the tyrosine, your son should have a regular little dopamine manufacturing lab going in his body!

Nutritionally, your multi-vitamin looks comprehensive and contains all the trace minerals you need. BUT...(I'm sure you know what's coming!) it also contains artificial color. Your boy may not react to this, but I know mine would. He'd get ugly, mean, hyper, and wet the bed.

With the flax oil, you're not going to get DHA and EPA amounts, because it doesn't contain them, it includes the Omega-3 precursors. Is the amount of Omega-3 you listed per capsule? If so, and if he is taking 3 of these capsules per day, then I'd say you're doing fine on the quantity.

I know that flax seed oil tastes much better than fish oil and is less expensive too. At some point, you may want to try using fish oil, though, just to compare the effects. Flax oil is comprised of short-chain fatty acids that the body must use to construct the EPA and DHA it needs. That's fine as long as that metabolic process isn't impaired in any way. With fish oil, the Omega-3 fatty acids are already present in their long-chain form so they're more readily available for the body and brain to use. Flax oil didn't work well for my boy (lots of things don't, and you might not have as many problems with your son) and concentrated fish oils high in DHA didn't work well either...only the high-EPA seems to do the trick. We're currently using the RxOmega3 and doing fine.

With the B-complex, did you add this separately to make sure it doesn't cause a bad reaction? ADHD kids respond weirdly to the B-vitamins. Like the kids in the Dutch study, where half improved on B6 and half got worse. Then they were switched to B1 and the ones who'd improved on B6 got worse on B1 and the ones who did poorly on B6 got better on B1.

Behaviorally, your boy sounds so much like mine it's scary. As long as he sticks to the Feingold diet VERY strictly and keeps up with his supplements, most of those behavioral symptoms are manageable. His bedwetting and exzema cleared up completely with the Feingold program. Oppositional behavior also dramatically reduced on Feingold. Temper tantrums have almost completely disappeared since we uncovered his inability to tolerate corn syrup in any form or amount. Lecithin and tyrosine are making inroads into his attention problems, though this is still a difficult area. Handwriting and posture sounded to me like they might be responsive to STNR therapy, so we are working on that. (So is AustinsMom and she's farther along than I am, so probably has a better idea of how it helps.)

On blaming, taking responsibility and low self-esteem, these are areas of concern for me, too, and are the major areas we're addressing with his psychologist. Psychological counseling is painfully expensive, but research has shown over and over and over again that it's very important to these kids' success, particularly later in life where issues like drug abuse, impulse control, criminal activity, suicidal ideation, etc. become critically important.

I know how hard you've worked at this and I think your boy is incredibly fortunate to have you. Now that you've been tinkering with supplements for a while, do you feel you've seen any behavioral changes? Are there things that haven't changed that need to? How about a general update?

[Carrieskids]

lllex,
How is the Play attention going? I read about it and I am really interested in buying the program. Do you see any difference? Is it worth it?
Carrieskids

[sierra]

So what kind of change and how fast a change would you expect when adding L-carnitine to a supplement program?

I got us all on

Fish Oil 300/200
Cal Mag Zinc
B-50
B12
Multivit
Extra mag to bring it up to 450 mg
L-carnitine
Flax seed oil and evening primrose oil alternating.

I'm careful to keep zinc, iron and manganese to within RDA because you have to read those labels carefully sometimes they sneak manganese in. I dont worry so much about going over 450 on magnesium but maybe I should.

Li'l Sprout is ADHD/ODD/Anxiety but not too hyper anymore on meds. ODD is going through the roof again now he's 12. Anxiety hasn't been too bad this year but he's getting so darned disorganized I'm gonna either pull out my hair or his.

Bean Sprout is ADD/Anxiety/Depression. Never been hyper. But a real straight and narrow kinda guy. I call him my Puritan.

I'm a grown up version of Li'l Sprout I guess. Too old to be hyper anymore!

[Kimmers]

Wow, I had no idea of the artificial colors in the multi! I looked at the amounts of everything else and didn't even read the other ingredients. Wow, am I really with it or what? And I can't even say he has reactions to them because he takes them right before we walk out the door for school so if he does, his poor teacher gets to deal with him.

On the flax seed, I went with that because I was trying to see if maybe that would work a little bit better...he was always getting fish oil before and I can honestly say that I think the fish oil works better, especially for the ezcema. So we will finish this bottle off and switch again-I wish I could find one that has the GLA included...what else provides this, is it the Evening Primrose Oil? Maybe I will have to add this as well as some Caritine to help improve things.

Ohmama-I have taken Dr. Amen's test but I do not recall any temperal lobe issues, however, it is possible that there were and I just don't remember. I will take it again and see what comes up. Thanks!

As far as my concerns on the Vit.'s A, D and the folic acid-am I giving too much? I had originally eliminated the B-vitamins altogether to check for negative reactions but when I did, I didn't see much improvement.

Also, what was that book called for the STNR therapy again? I really think I need to start this and Feingold for any of this to do any good!

As for our overall experience with supplements, the behaviors that I listed in my original post are, well let's say manageable when we are on the supplements. I am very, very happy with the results I just need a little more positive action and I am 100% convinced that Feingold is the answer. The fine tuning will come with the supplements once a good diet is established. I really, really would encourage anyone to do this before any meds. I just can't see us doing that at all.

Thanks for the help in our neverending journey!
Kimmers

[catatonic]

Kimmers, on your concerns about the specific vitamins:

Your Vitamin A is entirely in the form of beta-carotene. This is safe because your body will use what it needs and eliminate the rest. It's not the same as using a synthetic form of Vitamin A, which is difficult to eliminate since it's fat-soluble. As long as you stick with the beta-carotene, you're well within safe limits.

Your folic acid is at 800mcg, between the B-complex and the multi. RDA is 400mcg. Upper Tolerable Limit (which is the amount at which side effects may begin) is set at 1,000mcg per day for an adult, 800mcg for a child. (You can read about folate here: books.nap.edu/books/0309065542/html/196.html ) Anti-convulsant drugs and regular use of NSAIDS (aspirin and ibuprofen) reduce folate in the body and the need will be higher for people taking these. Same with birth control pills. Assuming none of these applies to your boy, you are in the comfort zone between minimum requirements and maximum recommended.

As for Vitamin C, it's pretty hard to give too much of this, as it's readily urinated out. Check the Linus Pauling Institute information on Vitamin C. Many people take thousands of mg daily without adverse effects. However, the National Academies Institute of Medicine sets upper limit at 2,000mg for an adult, 1,200mg for a child.

For Vitamin E, the Upper Tolerable Limit for a child is 600mg, which translates to approximately 900IU.

So it looks like you are fine on all fronts!

Sierra, based on what I've read, carnitine can take quite a while to make its presence felt. Research and nutritionists' recommend 10 weeks. Since carnitine's major effect is indirect, in that it aids in transportation of fatty acids, you should probably expect changes to be subtle ones, mainly related to how well the fatty acids are being utilized and therefore probably mainly related to attentiveness. OhMama is better informed than I am on carnitine, so hopefully she'll have more info for you. Your list of supplements looks like you're hitting all the important ones. I'm especially happy to see an ample quantity of magnesium. (Magnesium is kind of my pet vitamin.)

You don't mention what kind of medications your sprouts are on, but some meds can put additional nutritional demands on the body (as with anticonvulsants leading to a need for more folate). That might be worth checking into, in case they need more than just general supplementation.

[sierra]

Sprouts are both on Concerta after a few trips around the block. Bean Sprout is also on an SSRI. He's having a rough year from an anxiety and depression perspective. Looks like 8th graders go for the throat and show no mercy.

DH keeps telling me this is normal behavior amongst the male herd. If it's normal then Bean Sprout ain't cut out for it and the sooner he's on to high school the better. I hope once he gets out of this school situation and the teens lighten up on each other we can discontinue the SSRI. That's how it worked with Li'l Sprout a couple years ago.

I had a lot of anxiety issues at his age but for different reasons. Moved around a lot. Civilian air force brat. So didn't make friends easy after a few years.

Between the multivit and the b50 and the b12 they actually get more than the RDA of folic acid. Is that the same thing as folate? Is there a downside to double the RDA of folic acid?

Forgot. We all take carotenoid complex too. The A vit and all it's kissing cousins. I take extra E and calcium because I'm getting to be an old bat. DH just brought home a bunch of garlic tablets. I asked him didn't he rather get his garlic by the clove? He just said he wants to be sure he gets enough. Believe me he gets enough! I bet the garlic smell in our house and oozing out our pores can be smelled a mile away. We've always cooked with a whole lot of garlic.

Anyway I need to talk to him about what he thinks the garlic is going to do for him. Probably heard Paul Harvey on the radio or something.

Sorry I'm rambling today. Still jittery after our big storm. They said it would be a big one. But it was bigger than I expected.

[catatonic]

Sierra, I had to laugh at your Paul Harvey comment because it sounds so much like something my husband would do. I can see him marching in the door with his bag of stuff announcing, "I heard on Paul Harvey..."

Folate is the natural form of this B vitamin, folic acid is synthetic. The main risk associated with over-consumption of folic acid is that it may interfere with blood tests for B12 deficiency or B12-deficiency-induced anemia. If your supplement includes B12 as well (which a B-complex does) this should not be a problem. There's an informative, brief overview of folic acid here:
www.cc.nih.gov/ccc/supplements/folate.html#what

With SSRI's, the B vitamins and especially B6, may work to enhance their effectiveness. Same with folate. SSRI's may deplete zinc and selenium (in addition to depleting B vitamins), so your multi-vitamin ought to contain a variety of minerals. There's a so-so description of SSRI-nutrient interactions here:
home.caregroup.org/clinical/altmed/interactions/Drug_Classes/SSRI's.htm

I've seen by observing my boys -- presently one is in high school, one in middle school, one in elementary school, one not yet in school -- that kids are the MEANEST to each other during the middle school years. They're finding out who they are and where they fit in, and that process of self-definition seems to involve lots of defining of others, too, and not always very kindly. If it's any consolation, girls are MUCH meaner to each other. My 9th grader says (scornfully) that all the girls do is fight, cry, make up, fight, cry, makeup, fight, cry, makeup. Boys apparently deal with things in a more acceptable fashion by a.) ignoring or b.) cussing at each other and c.) fighting.

By the way, here's a list of garlic health benefits complete with links:
www.garleo.com/article.htm

As well as the competing viewpoint that garlic's health benefits have not been proven:
vanderbiltowc.wellsource.com/dh/content.asp?ID=305

Kimmers - yes, it's Evening Primrose Oil that contains GLA. It's also in borage oil. There's a short description of GLA and its sources here:
www.consumerlab.com/results/flaxseed.asp

[sierra]

Turns out it wasn't Paul Harvey it was some doc interviewed on talk radio. We get several San Francisco and Sacramento radio stations even though we're hours away.

He got the garlic for blood pressure. His BP is fine except at the doctor's office. White Coat High Blood Pressure. He's even taken in the home unit to the doctor to see if our machine is off. It's not off. His BP goes from a systolic usually around 110 to up close to 140 at the docs office

Glad to know my DH isn't the only one who brings home bags of stuff he heard about on the radio!

Since we give the boys b12 as well as the b-50 combo I think they're probably ok as far as folic acid masking a b12 deficiency. I've been thinking about trying the P-5-P in case B6 isn't quite right. See if it makes a difference especially with the anxiety issues. Maybe I'll start another thread. This one has a lot of good stuff but from the title people will think it's mostly about carnitine.

Oh yeah! On the girls being even worse. It never fails when I'm the carpool mom. I'll see at least 5 or 6 girls walk out of that middle school bawling their eyes out. I know most of them from volunteering when they were in elementary school. They weren't water faucets when they were younger.

I've tried to remember if I used to cry at school as a young teen. I know I cried at home more than a few times but I think I kept a stiff upper lip at school. But maybe my memory is bad.

Then again I cry watching TV and movies and I don't even try to watch the stuff that's supposed to make people want to cry. I figure I'd get hysterical in the movie theater if an old Cosby eposide can still choke me up.