5-HTP (5-Hydroxytryptophan)

[ohmama]

For those who are using or thinking of using this amino acid to effect serotonin levels there is some new information you may want to consider. This information is taken from the 2004 edition of Disease Prevention and Treatment by the staff of Life Extension. This publication is based upon thousands of research studies and the clinical experience of physicians around the world.Their website is www.lef.org for more information.

Although several reports in the published literature show that 5-HTP may be as effective as some antidepressants, the Life Extention Foundation does not endorse its use in the U.S. based on certain findings.....

"The process by which 5-HTP is converted into serotonin is called decarboxylation. If decarboxylation occur before 5-HTP is absorbed by the brain, blood levels of serotonin will elevate significantly, but very little serotonin will enter the brain.

When Europeans take 5-HTP, they are often prescribed the decarboxylase inhibitor carbidopa that prevents 5-HTP from being converted into serotonin until it reaches the brain. Americans do not take carbidopa with 5-HTP and the result is possible serotonin overload in the blood, with virtually no serotonin reaching the brain.

Americans taking 5-HTP are more vulnerable to blood serotonin overload because, unlike most Europeans who are vitamin deficient, Americans who use 5-HTP usually take vitamin B6 as well. Vitamin B6 rapidly converts 5-HTP into serotonin before it reaches the brain. Even when combined with carbidopa, high levels of vitamin B6 will break through the carbidopa barrier and ensure that 5-HTP converts into serotonin in the blood before it can reach the brain."

I think this is especially important if you are considering or already using a serotonin enhancer. You would not want to include 5-HTP or another product that could add to it. Serotonin syndrome can be serious.

I just got this new research book as a gift from my sister who knows how wonderful books are. So, you can expect to be hearing more from me.

[catatonic]

Very, very interesting. I've read a couple of articles arguing against the need for a decarboxylase inhibitor, but they are not particularly convincing and seem short on facts. Do you happen to know if there is a natural source of decarboxylase inhibition? Would removing any B6 supplementation do the trick, do you suppose?

My never-ending human science project continues, and I am already looking ahead towards tackling the serotonin end of things if the tyrosine/dopamine experiment should prove unsuccessful.

[AnneM]

This is interesting .... I have often wondered abou 5-HTP and I also often wonder about SAM-E. Are the two actually related?

P.S. Wasn't too sure about the comment "most Europeans are vitamin deficient" though!! ... Even that by itself is an interesting point... (especially as I am a European ;D

[catatonic]

5-HTP (5-hydroxytryptophan) is a form of the amino acid tryptophan. It's a precursor of the neurotransmitter serotonin.

SAM-e is also an amino acid, classified as a "methyl donor". It is useful to all neurotransmitters, in that it contributes to the body's ability to construct them from precursors. It ought to raise both seratonin and dopamine levels.

So I wouldn't say they're precisely related. More that they can both produce an increase of seratonin, via different forms of nutritional support.

Both are amino acids it would be wise to approach with caution. In addition to the issue OhMama raised about 5-HTP and serum serotonin, in recent years contaminants have been introduced via tryptophan production on several occasions. At one point, it was banned from the market entirely. SAM-e has the drawback of being terribly expensive. The only health risk I am aware of associated with SAM-e is that, unless proper B-complex supplementation is given along with SAM-e, it produces homocysteine as a breakdown product and homocysteine is a proven contributor to heart disease.

Studies on adequate vitamin intake indicate that Americans consume by far the WORST diet, full of packaged foods that are nutrient-deficient. The British diet, while not as heavily weighted towards convenience foods, is still nutrient-deficient. In fact, a study done on rats who were fed tinned meat, boiled vegetables, tea and white bread ended prematurely when the rats turned to cannibalism within a matter of days. Those of us in the industrialized world fail to eat enough whole foods. The foods we do eat are over-processed and laden with harmful additives. At the very least, a good multi-vitamin should help prevent us from resorting to cannibalism. (Sorry, but I believe I'd be classified as a food extremist and tend toward lecturing on this topic.)

[AnneM]

catatonic said:

(Sorry, but I believe I'd be classified as a food extremist and tend toward lecturing on this topic.)

Catatonic - please don't worry about this - I find it fascinating and am sure I am not the only one!! ... I really value your sharing this information - Thankyou!!

It also leads me to the question of how the "other" natural antidepressant St Johns Wort works? And ALSO the Vitamin B6 that you say is recommended with SAM-E. I have also been told that SJW should be taken with a Vitamin B complex tablet which IS what I give my own son ... Do you agree with that - am I doing the right thing there? I also know from previous posts that SJW and Vitamin B6 unfortunately don't help with your own son... Any ideas on why they help some so much and others have the opposite effect?

Now its my turn to be sorry because I am bombarding you with questions!!

P.S. As for the European (and I would think especially British diet) I can see your point!! ... We certainly do live in a society lacking in wholefoods ... Thanks again ...

[catatonic]

St. John's Wort is powerful stuff, which I think many people lose sight of because it is "natural". It really does work for mild or moderate depression. Perhaps that's why it doesn't work on my boy...he doesn't have to deal with depression, being more the type to respond angrily to things. He's kind of the anti-depressive child.

In Germany, where St. John's Wort is more widely prescribed than any other anti-depressant, it's been studied extensively. Researchers there have concluded that it works because it inhibits reuptake of the neurotransmitter serotonin (the same principle many pharmaceutically formulated anti-depressants are based on). The British Medical Journal concluded that St. John's Wort works as well as prescription anti-depressants with FAR fewer side effects. Here's a summary of a study in which St. John's Wort compared favorably with Prozac: www.discount-vitamins-herbs.net/st_johns_wort-prozac.htm

The active ingredient in St. John's Wort, hypericum, is known to interact with a number of other substances, causing unpleasant consequences such as headaches, vomiting, and high blood pressure. Things to avoid if you're taking St. John's Wort include: the amino acid tryptophan (and therefore 5-HTP), the amino acid tyrosine, amphetamines, asthma inhalers, nasal decongestants and hay fever medication. It also interferes with the absorption of iron and other minerals, so if you use vitamins, they shouldn't be taken at the same time of day. It has been known to cause hair loss and photosensitivity.

In women, SJW should not be used if you're taking oral contraceptives, as it can cause bleeding between periods and serotonin syndrome. In addition, it causes the female hormones to be metabolized more quickly, possibly causing the birth control to no longer work! I know this has been studied in conjunction with estradiol and desogestrol, but I am not certain if these side effects can occur with all hormone-based contraceptives.

These are things to be aware of just in case. SJW is very safe when used properly, far safer than pharmaceuticals for the same purpose, and just as effective in most cases.

I'm not aware of any research demonstrating that SJW causes a greater need for Vitamin B6. However, Vitamin B6, like SJW, can be useful in treating depression, which is frequently associated with low B6 levels. It's not uncommon to take B6 ad B12 along with the St. John's Wort as a way of covering all the bases. Generally magnesium is also a component of nutritional supplements for depression as well. There's a good general overview of nutritional approaches to curing depression here: www.healthyplace.com/Communities/Depression/treatment/alternative/brain_chemistry.asp

This is probably more information than you really wanted, but I find these topics so interesting that I get going like a runaway horse and can't quit until I run out of steam.

[AnneM]

Catatonic a big thankyou!! This is all exactly relevant to what I want to know/find out!! ... The blood pressure rise is something that would worry me - but he has his blood pressure taken every 4-5 months at our clinic and so far this has proved normal ... but definitely worth keeping an eye on ...

As for the photosensitivity I so definitely agree with this ... it is winter here in the UK (as in the US) and when the son IS out (rare!) it is very LOW in the sky ... the other morning we were driving in the direction of the sun and my son's eyes were watering badly and he was really struggling with the "low" sun right in our eyes... in my opinion his reaction was over and above normal sensitivity to such sunlight ... and I know last summer on holiday he "reddened up" quicker than I would normally have expected ... so I have got VERY fussy about him wearing suncreams....

I had never realised about the interaction with iron!! ... and I will certainly make sure he takes his multi-vitamin at a different end of the day ...

A BIG THANKYOU Catatonic ... this is really useful ..

P.S. Am also going to take a look at the website you suggested...

[Kimmers]

Cat,

You mentioned that St. John's Wort should not be used with tryptophan and 5-HPT...I am so confused because on Amen's website, he stated that for children (like my son) who have the Cingulate System Hyperactivity that he recommends taking these things along with St. John's Wort.

*Scratching my head*

Also, my son, like yours, is very much NOT depressed. He as well reacts angrily to things and isn't weepy or sad so in my opinion, the St. John's Wort wouldn't even be needed, so why does he recommend it anyway?

I look forward to your insight...

Thanks!

Kimmers

[AnneM]

Hi Kimmers ...! Sorry I am butting in here and I cannot answer the question about the combination of 5-htp/SJW etc. ... BUT I did want to make one observation ... My son has also never been "weepy or sad" but he WAS diagnosed with depression ... this caused him (at the time) to have a very negative attitude to life as a whole and often this was communicated with anger ... just wanted to clarify that 'depression' does in no way necessarily show itself as "weepy/sad" ....

GOOD LUCK!! ... I will also be interested to see Catatonic's reply to your question!!

[Kimmers]

Anne-

Wow, I had no idea. What kinds of things did your son do that he was dx'ed with depression? My son is very, very negative. Towards me, towards his dad and sister, towards school, other family members, even certain activities that he should enjoy at his age. (for instance in the summertime I have to kick him out of the house or he would sit in front of the t.v. all day-that's what teenagers do, not a 5 1/2 year old...he should want to go out and play!) He WILL NOT attempt to do anything he does not think he can do well because I think he is afraid of failure. (self-esteem issues) I am not sure where he gets this because we are constantly praising him and encouraging him with positive reinforcement to no avail. He won't play games unless he knows he can win or at least come close to, he won't color pictures or write his letters or numbers unless you sit next to him and tell him, step by step. He is even this way in school and he gets frustrated because the teacher doesn't have the time to spend one-on-one with him. Maybe the lack of confidence is due to some depression?? I don't know-I am always looking into other possibilities besides the ODD and ADHD such as Sensory Integration. ( I am all but positive he has this!) I appreciate you bringing this to my attention!

Kimmers

[ohmama]

Kimmers said:

Cat,

You mentioned that St. John's Wort should not be used with tryptophan and 5-HPT...I am so confused because on Amen's website, he stated that for children (like my son) who have the Cingulate System Hyperactivity that he recommends taking these things along with St. John's Wort.

*Scratching my head*

Also, my son, like yours, is very much NOT depressed. He as well reacts angrily to things and isn't weepy or sad so in my opinion, the St. John's Wort wouldn't even be needed, so why does he recommend it anyway?

I look forward to your insight...

Thanks!

Kimmers

St John's Wort, tryptophan, and the 5HPT are advised for the purpose of increasing Serotonin. Much like the med prozac and others used for depression. You would not take these 3 things together. You would take the one that best suits you/your child. Some people who can't take St. John's Wort respond to tryptophan without any problem. I would not advise taking the 5HPT after reading about the new information. All the Amen books were published before this came out and I hope he is aware of it. The tryptophan scare was only traced to a bad batch of product and is once again safe.

AnneM makes an excellent point about depression and the signs to identify it. St. John's Wort has been a life saver for me.

[lisle]

Anne:
This sounds like low frustration tolerance to me more than depression. It's like my son a lot. Did you ever read The Explosive Child by W. Ross Greene? I don't recall if you've tried that, but so far it's the thing that's helped harmony in my home and tension in my son, including negativity, the most. My problem is sticking with it and the opposite feedback he gets away from home.
lisle

[Kimmers]

No, I definitely don't want to mess with the 5-HPT with my son. Should I maybe try the St. John's Wort and see if there is a depression issue going on in addition to everything else? What things should I be concerned about when giving it? Also, what does "The Explosive Child" suggest? (I am not a book reader and haven't read any of the abundantly recommended selections on the board!)

Thanks,
Kimmers

[AnneM]

Kimmers said:

Anne-

Wow, I had no idea. What kinds of things did your son do that he was dx'ed with depression? My son is very, very negative. Towards me, towards his dad and sister, towards school, other family members, even certain activities that he should enjoy at his age. (for instance in the summertime I have to kick him out of the house or he would sit in front of the t.v. all day-that's what teenagers do, not a 5 1/2 year old...he should want to go out and play!) He WILL NOT attempt to do anything he does not think he can do well because I think he is afraid of failure. (self-esteem issues) I am not sure where he gets this because we are constantly praising him and encouraging him with positive reinforcement to no avail. He won't play games unless he knows he can win or at least come close to, he won't color pictures or write his letters or numbers unless you sit next to him and tell him, step by step. He is even this way in school and he gets frustrated because the teacher doesn't have the time to spend one-on-one with him. Maybe the lack of confidence is due to some depression?? I don't know-I am always looking into other possibilities besides the ODD and ADHD such as Sensory Integration. ( I am all but positive he has this!) I appreciate you bringing this to my attention!

Kimmers

Hi Kimmers - When Sam was diagnosed with depression 2 years ago (which I can honestly hand-on-heart say is now completely gone with the intervention of St Johns Wort) he seemed "angry with the world"... it seemed that nothing was 'right', nothing was 'pleasurable', the world "sucked" ... He did NOT get weepy but he did have a lack of energy ... (Having said that however he ISN'T the most energetic person in the world anyway!) ... One thing I particularly noticed was that when he was 'watching' tv for example - he wasn't really 'watching' it at all ... he was miles away ...

What WAS interesting was that when we intervened with St Johns Wort in December 2002 we noticed a huge difference ... and he then returned to school in January (which was about a month after we started SJW) and suddenly the teachers were saying "We have noticed a big change in attitude with Sam this term" ... (and they knew NOTHING about the SJW intervention!) and the negative attitude was actually GONE ... and so was the frustration and anger that seemed to go along with it ... he is honestly no longer an angry person - he is no longer a frustrated person ... he is easy-going and cheerful!! He is now 15 and a generally happy, cheerful person ...

HOWEVER, I do know that SJW doesn't work for everyone ... but it has worked for us ... at the time I thought "Well I will try" but I was sceptical ... but we haven't looked back since then ...

[AnneM]

lisle said:

Anne:
This sounds like low frustration tolerance to me more than depression. It's like my son a lot. Did you ever read The Explosive Child by W. Ross Greene? I don't recall if you've tried that, but so far it's the thing that's helped harmony in my home and tension in my son, including negativity, the most. My problem is sticking with it and the opposite feedback he gets away from home.
lisle

Hi Lisle ... YES at that time he did have a low frustration tolerance but (in my honest opinion) born out of depression ... Up until age 12 he was happy and go-lucky ... at age 13 he was very different .. I was told it was "adolescent onset depressoin" (i.e. came along with those bounding hormones!) ... When depression was first mentioned I scoffed at it ... but he had also 'opened his heart' to the psychologist and although he was not suicidal he was very 'down' ... He is NOT an explosive child as a whole ... and he certainly isn't these days ... and also wasn't as a small child ... difficult yes, awkward yes - but NOT explosive ... the negative attitude etc. was very much within the age of 13 ... the "Explosive child" as a whole just simply doesn't match....