Dr. Amen's website

[Kimmers]

After reading posts about Dr. Amen I decided to check it out. I completed the checklist for my son and the results came back that he is Most Probable the Combined Type as well as the Cingulate System Hyperactivity type. The other types were Probable as well but for the two main areas it seems he needs help, Dr. Amen suggested using diet as well as tyrosine, grape seed, ginko biloba, L-tryptophan, 5HTP and St. John's Wort. He states that these are all safe for children to take but I am very leary. Does anyone have advice on any of these things and what to stay away from?

Thanks!

Kimmers

[ohmama]

Kimmers,
Don't use these things if you are giving meds. As I remember you are not? There could be interactions with certain meds so it's not for everyone reading this. Also, if you suspect or have evidence of bipolar or temporal lobe disorder (the Amen braintest would have brought that out).

Otherwise just start slow and with a low dose. Keep a record of any reactions you get. It could help but it is very general and would take a more detailed exam including a brain scan to pinpoint an exact diagnosis. You may want to check out one of his books "Change your brain change your life" or "Healing add" gives more information on using these things and will tell you how they work.

Let us know how it works. These products should also be pharmaceutical grade for best results.

Oh, almost forgot... Does he say to use all these together or is he giving you a list of choices to pick from? I don't think he is advising all taken together. It is important to be clear on this.

[catatonic]

Kimmers -
We are in the early stages of testing out tyrosine right now. My boy had a VERY bad day yesterday, but I believe that was a food reaction and not a result of the tyrosine. I'll post our results as the guinea-pig project continues. I believe the gingko biloba is intended to be used along with tyrosine. We may try adding it in several weeks if tyrosine results are acceptable, but haven't done so yet. Some research seems to show that gingko could help with general cognition issues like memory and attentiveness.

On grapeseed extract, I think there's some good research on it out there, but I hesitate to give it to Challenge Boy because of its salicylate content. (Salicylates are a no-no on Feingold.)

St. John's Wort has an opposite effect on my boy - makes him into a bad little dude who's angry and won't sleep.

The 5HTP and L-tryptophan are both building blocks for the neurotransmitter serotonin, which ought to be particularly helpful where depresseion is present, although I would check whether you are supposed to use both of them at once. We haven't tried either one, so I have no clue about their actual effects.

I also completed the checklist and my boy came back Combined type, with all of the others listed as "not probable". For the "classic" type of ADHD, the type that normally responds best to the stimulant medications (my boy appears to fall into this category) tyrosine ought to help by promoting increased levels of dopamine. Logically, that is, if the research is to be believed. It remains to be seen whether that's true in our human laboratory or not.

[Kimmers]

Well at the beginning of Christmas vacation I stopped using the supplements altogether for 2 reasons: My son was all of a sudden refusing to take any of the pills because he says he has to take too many of them. So, for the second reason I stopped, I thought well this would be a good time to do a little expriment to see EXACTLY which ones are helping. When I originally started the supplements, I started the Omega 3, B vitamins, Magnesium, and multivit. all at the same time. He improved dramatically at first but the last few months before I stopped them he was starting to slip back. Now that he is completely off of them, he is ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE! I know the supplements really do work so I would like to add them back in one at a time to see exactly what is helping him and how much. (P.S. Last night I was so frustrated with him I told him, "you are going back on your pills whether you like it or not!" He says to me, "why?" I said because you can't be good without them. He agreed so maybe he can see the difference as well!)

So since he was starting to slip back, I am wondering if maybe we need to add some of the things Dr. Amen had suggested. The way I understand it, he feels someone like my son would benefit from a regimen as follows:

45 mg. of OPC grape seed

250 mg. twice daily of St. John's Wort

450 mg. capsule twice daily of fish oil containing evening primrose oil for first 12 weeks then 1 daily after that

400 IU Vitamin E

25-150 mg. once daily of 5-HTP or 1000-3000 mg. at bedtime of prescription L-tryptophan

He also suggests using 60-120 mg. Ginko Biloba for concentration and memory but it is also for energy! Yikes, not MORE energy!

I was thinking about giving these a try. Based on your experiences, should I start with the basics we were giving before (the magnesium, fish oil and B-vitamins) or should I start from scratch with these new recommendations. Also, if I do start from scratch, should I still include the magnesium and B-vitamins. There was something definitely missing before but there was also something that was definitely helping.

I am just scared of trying new things and would like your opinion. I am afraid of having reactions to some of the things like St. John's Wort like your son had Cat. He did have a list of things to choose from but also was specific in listing which part of the brain they will be most beneficial to. Such as the tyrosine is good for general ADD symptoms but for someone like my son who has the Cingulate symptoms as well (oppositional behavior) giving the tyrosine would make it worse so he suggests the 5-HTP instead, if that answers your questions about where I got the suggestions from.

I really look forward to your wonderful advice (as usual).

Thanks!
Kimmers

[Kimmers]

I also checked out the Histamine websites you posted elsewhere Cat and it seems to me that my son is Low Histamine which suggests using the fatty acids, the folic acid, B-vitamins and manganese. So if I would add these to the above and give everything that seems beneficial, I would be giving more pills than I was before. Oh brother... what do you guys think?

Kimmers

[Kimmers]

Forgot to mention...he also suggests a diet HIGH in carbs and low in protein rather than the other way around...which is basically opposite of Feingold right?? Something about if there are equal concentrations of amino acids in the blood, tryptophan will lose out unless there is a fair amount of blood insulin also present (carbs therefore indirectly boost tryptophan uptake). So in order to boost the chemicals in the brain that my son's condition needs, he would not be allowed to partake in Feingold? Am I correct...

I promise this will be my last post until you have a chance to respond!

Kimmers

[ohmama]

Kimmers,
Before you decide to give the 5-HTP please check out the new topic "5-HTP" that I posted this afternoon.

I think you should stabilize him first before you start adding or trying anything new. By adding the omega 3 and vitamins you were using you should be able to accomplish that. These are your foundation and very necessary as they are basic since they will compliment the other supplements you will be adding.

Once he is stable you can began to start the new products you want one at a time and keep a record of your results. You will want to list what you expect each new thing to accomplish and be aware of why you are giving them. For example St. John's Wort, if you try this would be on your list as an enhancer of serotonin. If there is a negative reaction from this you would want to be aware that other products meant to raise serotonin levels could give the same or a similar reaction and should be avoided. It is important to know what these things are meant to do to the various brain chemicals.

I would say not to change his diet. Stay on Feingold, that would be making too many changes and may not even be necessary. You will want to see what each result is before moving on to the next.

[AustinsMom]

Kimmers, After reading your post, I did the checklist too and my ds8 came out with the same 2 primary areas that your child did. When I read the info on the web site though, it sounds like the frontal cortex needs dopamine and a low carbo diet, and the cingulate needs serotonin and high carb diet. And to make it really difficult it sounds like the dopamine and serotonin have an inverse relationship, so increasing one decreases the other and vice versa. So that left me confused on how to do this...certainly the cingulate issues (opposition and negativity) are the ones that make my life most difficult. But the attention is too critical for education to not say it is the most important. Are you just choosing one to focus on? Just interested to hear how you are approaching this.

[dfp]

Hi Kimmers,
Re: your question about Feingold, whether or not it is high-carb or low-carb, the answer is it's neither one or the other. *You* decide how many carbs your child eats and you can regulate to your heart's desire!

The central premise of the diet is to remove those substances from our diet that cause adverse reactions, so removing artificial colors, flavors, additives & preservatives, as well as salicylates, can help our children (and our husbands, as I've found! LOL) feel better and not behave so badly.

My add/expolosively frustrated child has settled down. My hyper son hops around less (I say he has a lot of vertical energy!). And my husband's asthma bothers him FAR less now that we're doing Feingold. *I* cheat like mad so I can't tell what kind of better person I'd be if I followed the diet more strictly!

One thing we did notice. Pre-Feingold, we watched carbs very carefully. We noticed that our explosive child was that much worse when he had a high-carb, high glycemic index diet, so we pushed the protein.

Since we've adopted Feingold (plus a blood-pressure med. that increases blood flow to his prefrontal cortex), we haven't had to worry that much about the carb balance.

One reason I don't stress the blood-pressure med he takes, even though it does seem to affect his behavior, is that it is clear that when he goes off Feingold, he reverts to much of his old horrible behavior. The Tenex helps, but after he spent 2 days at grandma's, I can tell you Feingold helps more!!!

Let us know what you find out!

dfp

[AnneM]

Hi Kimmers ... Good Luck in your way forward. I am absolutely NOT an expert (the opposite in fact!) on "natural alternatives" ... and the only thing I can comment on from the list you gave is St. Johns Wort which has helped my son (in my opinion) more than any other thing we have ever tried....

HOWEVER ... I see that Catatonic finds id has the opposite effect!! ... and I am also VERY wary of promoting St. Johns Wort to anybody in the US ... I am in the UK and in Europe as a whole (especially Germany) this has become a very much used and very successful antidepressant ... BUT it was also pointed out to me on a post some time ago that the tests/quality checks etc. in Europe on such things as St Johns Wort are WAY WAY stricter than those in the US ... hence my wariness ...my other wariness is that I believe that St Johns Wort will work extremely well for SOME types of adhd/add but absolutely NOT for all types ...

So if you choose St Johns Wort my advice is be aware of its great potential - but ALSO be aware it doesn't work for all types of adhd/add !! ... and ALSO be very wary (especially if you are not in Europe) of the brand you get and its 'purity'....

GOOD LUCK in whatever you decide!!

[catatonic]

Kimmers -
A couple of thoughts came to me here...Your original supplements look like a very good basic regimen. I don't see anything there that might cause problems, except one possibility.

We have trouble with the B-complex capsule. I have come to the conclusion that I have to stick to the same brand NO MATTER WHAT. My boy will flip out and get hyper and oppositional and on two occasions where this has lasted for more than the day or two that a typical food reaction takes, both times I've traced it to the B-complex capsule. I put him back on the original brand and the problems disappear. If you began using a different B-vitamin, you might want to test this out. In fact, you might want to test changes in any supplement. (He also reacted to a multi-vitamin, I think because it contained apple pectin, which is high salicylate.)

If I were you, I'd resume your original supplements WITHOUT the B-complex. Add the B-complex back in separately once you've gotten things stabilized. Then if you want to add the recommended other things, do them one at a time.

[Kimmers]

Thanks everyone for the responses! All very, very good advice. I did start my son on his original regimen (without the B-vitamins) to get him stabilized again. But for some reason, he is still belligerent on taking them when before he was actually happy to take them. I am at a total loss on this...maybe I'll have to pull out the wallet and offer money like Cat has had to do! I will give it a few weeks to see if he gets back at least to where he was and then I will see what else we can add. Thanks for the info. on the 5-HPT Ohmama because that and St. John's Wort were my two biggest concerns. I guess it is all a wait and see game. I wish there were some clear cut guidelines that says: "If your child does this...give this," etc. Oh well...

Thanks again for the good advice, I will follow it very closely and I am sure I will have more questions when the time comes to tweek it all.

Kimmers