Omega question for ohmama or others

[AustinsMom]

Ohmama, I found this board right after it started so did not see you on the other board, but I understand from recent posts that you were missed! After I read your answer to johnbark's question, I realized how much you know about lipids, and would love your input on my situation.

My ds8 is dx'ed with ADHD/LD (60 lbs). We started supplements in August, including Neuromins DHA by Nature's Way 400 mg; Evening primrose oil 1000 mg, and other vitamin and mineral supplements (the protocol from the book the ADHD Nutrition Solution) . We went off of Strattera in late October. We have seen good results but still see very clear signs of lipid deficiency, namely DRY DRY hands, generalized dry skin, excessive thirst is better but still present.

From posts here with Catatonic, we decided to change oils. So we greatly reduced the primrose to 250 mg/day and changed to MaxEPA by KAL which has 1000mg fishoil with 180 EPA and 120 mg DHA, and we are doing 4/day.

After reading your post, am thinking of trying the Nordic Naturals. What strength would you recommend? How soon do you think we would see a change--would it still take ~12 weeks if we are already taking some EFA's? Do you think I should expect to see significant changes in the skin on his hands or am I using an unrealistic measure ? My thought is that the signs of lipid deficiency should disappear if he is getting enough EFA's.

My thanks to any and all who respond. I feel like I read this stuff till my eyes blur....it's so nice to get opinions from others too. By the way ohmama and catatonic: today I ordered the Excitotoxin and the Omega 3 books from Amazon. After hearing your recommendations figured I needed to add them to my not insignificant library of ADHD reading material. THANKS

[ohmama]

Austins mom,
Most fish oil supplements found in health food stores contain only 30% omega-3 fatty acids. The remaining 70% of the fish oil in these low-concentration preparations are other lipids that are better avoided and do not give the benefits you would be after when treating a serious disorder such as we have with our kids. It is well worth the search for a more highly concentrated product. As you can expect the cost is more. There are several high-quality concentrated fish oil supplements ranging from 50% omega-3 content to more than 90% omega-3 content.

I like the Nordic Naturals as I have investigated this manufacturer and found them to be one of the best as I stated in my post to John. I am sure there are others out there that are good also.

I think the omega-3 Liquid would be a good choice. See www.nordicnaturals.com This has 450mg EPA and 300mg DHA per 1/2 teaspoon (lemon flavored). The website is screwed up on this and gives the wrong information on the contents. I called them but it looks like they haven't fixed it yet. It gives the amount as 875mg EPA and 625mg DHA. This is incorrect.

If you are looking for a higher EPA you can view the different products till you find one that suits you. The EPA/DHA is a very individual choice. Some people prefer the higher EPA and find it will give better results. For a long time I found for us the higher DHA is what made the difference. This seems to be the case in younger children. It is something you will have to see about by experimenting with. Everyone is different. I think you will be safe by using this liquid though because the ratio of DHA and EPA are close and you can go from there to narrow it down once you get a feel for what is working for you.

If you use this I would say to give it twice a day after breakfast and dinner (along with your vitamins C and E).

It's hard to say what the value of your previous oil is so I don't know how long it will be before you see results on this. I know this is a good quality product. If you keep an eye on his diet and use some vitamin E cream you should see results with the dry skin before too long. I would say to make sure the water he is drinking is very clean and filtered. Hope this helps.

[AustinsMom]

What is the drinking water connection? We use tap water most of the time.

[ohmama]

Austins mom,
See if this helps www.cleanwateraction.org/ontap.html

also, www.nrdc.org/water/drinking/uscities/contents.asp

Sometimes it is the little things we take for granted, like just turning on the faucet and taking a drink that are the most important. How can any of us have a treatment plan in place without considering the effect our water has on us? Is it really clean? You don't have to dig too deep to find out. This is the first site I pulled up. I know there has to be many more. These are not designed to sell you a product only to inform and educate.

Has anyone else done research on this subject? If so do you have any websites to share? I get most of my information from books and so do very little research on the web.

How can our vitamins, fatty acids, food, etc. work without drinking clean water first? This is a major consideration. Do you trust that this very basic need is met as it should be? I don't.

[catatonic]

If you want to know what your own local water contains or does not contain, contact your local water utilities company. They must mail out the most recent water analysis to all consumers on a yearly basis. In fact, this is federal law -- you MUST receive this information before July 1 of each year. The utility company MUST provide this data to you upon request. (If not, contact the Public Utilities Commission in your area, or failing that, the nearest branch of the federal EPA.)

Many municipal areas post their water quality results on line via the Environmental Protection Agency's water quality data web site -- or at least they post links to their own websites so that you can hunt endlessly to locate the actual report. The list is here so you can check and see if your report is included:
yosemite1.epa.gov/ogwdw/ccr.nsf/America?OpenView&Count=700

This is actually a very informative website for water quality information in general. It contains info on clean water standards, types of contaminants, etc etc etc.

I also highly recommend the American Water Works Association website, which is consumer oriented. It explains the 1996 laws about providing water quality data to customers, and about how you can make sure that your utility is in compliance. It's here:
www.awwa.org/advocacy/learn/INFO/6FAQCCR.CFM

If you'd like information on major sources of pollution in your state and what types of contaminants you're likely to find in your water -- thanks to incredibly lax industry standards that the current administration only wants to make even laxer -- take a look at this extremely well-researched site established by the non-profit organization "Environmental Working Group":
www.ewg.org/reports/reportcard/cwatext.html

Something you might want to do just for "fun" is test the chlorine content of your tap water. You can use a $6.99 swimming pool test kit for this. I know that ours routinely tests as more heavily chlorinated than our swimming pool.

If you can stand listening to the sales pitch, Culligan will do a free analysis of a water sample from your home:
www.bayinfo-tech.net/eculligan/information_request.html

BTW, we also use tap water most of the time. I've come to the conclusion that is is a preferable option to consuming all of the endocrine-disrupting chemicals in plastic water bottles.

[ohmama]

OK, call me radical it was bound to come out sooner or later. I would rather not drink chlorine and all the other harmful chemicals that are added to make the water "safe". I distill our water and store it in glass containers. It helps me sleep better at night in more ways than one.

I just discovered another site where you can purchase all of the Nordic Naturals products for less www.vnfnutrition.com

[catatonic]

Ohmama, what method do you use for water distillation?

[ohmama]

Cat,
It's steam distillation with carbon filtration

www.waterwise.com gives all the details.

[dfp]

Hi Ohmama,
I thought your comment about getting found out about how radical you were about water was funny. Perhaps we're all radical here-- trying the very best for our families? I know I get some looks sometimes. LOL. Good for you doing all that hard work to get good clean water.

Anyway, I wanted to ask about vnfnutrition. I just went to their site because you mentioned their good prices. I'd love to find a better price for our omega liquid. But I was surprised to find that the Nordic Naturals omega liquid I buy (Ultimate Omega, 4 oz bottle) for $19.95 at our HFS was $33.95 at VNF. And I thought *I* was paying a lot. Am I missing something?

Right now I'll stick to the local store!


dfp

[ohmama]

Dfp,
There are two omega-3 Liquid products on the vnfnutrition site.

The one for $33.95 is Ultimate Omega Liquid, this contains almost double the EPA & DHA as the other one you purchase for $19.95.

That one is called Omega-3 Liquid. It has 450mg EPA & 300mg DHA. Is this the one you use? Check the mg's and I think you will find it is the one. On the vnf site you can get the Omega-3 Liquid (lemon) for $16.95. In stores and on the Nordic Natural's website it is the same as what you pay, $19.95. It's not a great savings but is $3. less for the same product. It adds up if you use a lot.

To cover your shipping costs you would want to purchase more than one bottle of course. I'm getting several of them at a time plus some other products they carry that I can't find anywhere else to make it worth while. We use the Ultimate Omega Liquid ($33.95 from vnf but this is $39.95 everywhere else! So I save $6. per bottle) because it has 875mg EPA & 625mg DHA per serving (1/2 teaspoon). My children need that high dose or I will have to put them in matching straight jackets. I am constantly amazed at what a difference this makes in their behavior.

[dfp]

Oh thanks for clearing that up. I couldn't figure it out. Yes, the one I'm using is 450 mg EPA & 300 mg DHA. Yes, $3 off *is* good, esp. if I'm doing enough bottles to offset the shipping.

I do like the Nordic Naturals, I also like how I only have to give 1/2 tsp. I like giving the boys the omega 3s but I don't really know how much it's helping. I'll take the overall health benefits though! We have seen more results from Feingold (though I used to be the ultimate skeptic) & Tenex.

Anyway, thanks for the pointer to the site. Before I order I'll make sure I'm getting the right thing!

dfp

[ohmama]

dfp,
What does the Tenex do? Does this help with hyper activity or tantrums? Is your child strickly ADHD or are there other things like anxiety or bipolar issues?

I am asking because I'm not familiar with using meds and have only recently started on Trileptal for temporal lobe problems (tantrums, etc.) it is an anti seizure med. I can't see any difference from using it. I get good results with the omega 3 that I CAN see, but so far no noticeable results with this med. He cannot use anything to address the ADHD till this is under control and then a stimulant is recommended. I know of other things I can use for a natural stim and will try that when the time is right. In the mean time I am searching for some knowledge about it. He has "ring of fire adhd" it is similar to bipolar so the med choice has to be right. Also anxiety issues and more. It's all very confusing.

[dfp]

Ohmama,
These thoughts and decisions are hard, aren't they? I think anyone who says that putting one's kids on meds or natural alternatives for that matter is easy has rocks in their heads. It's all hard...

Anyway, the Tenex is interesting because it's not a stim. It's a blood pressure med which has been shown to increase blood flow to the pre-frontal cortex. It has shown improvements in working memory and inhibition responses in studies. You can search on medline for Tenex or guanfacine to see some of the studies. There's a few worth perusing there so I won't just give you a link. I know you know how to read that stuff -- you'll probably understand the medical jargon better than me anyhow.

My son is NOT predominantly ADHD according to evaluations, but I actually feel he is more than the eval says he is. Actually, his issue is attention regulation-- either too much or too little, but never "just the right amount". He does have anxiety issues, and while he's not hyperactive most of the time (he can be), his impulsivity was the kind that I could see leading to some kid getting pushed in front of a moving car. Scary. He is also easily frustrated and explosively inflexible.

The Tenex has really helped all that, but really the Feingold diet too. Do you do Feingold? I know your boys are older, so it might be harder to initiate. I was totally skeptical of the program-- thought it was complete quackery. We ate relatively well I though, very little junk, and if they were going to have chips, they came from the HFS. But in desperation we tried it, made some other changes with Feingold (limiting salicylates and being more strict about artificial ingredients) and they really seemed to make a difference.

For instance, my kids have been doing really well recently, behavior-wise. Then they were at my in-laws for New Years Eve & Day and ate everything off-diet. My challenge son was a rollercoaster today. Crazy emotional. Still not as bad as pre-Tenex, but clearly very out-of-sorts. He calls it his "hot lava brain". Definitely a bad day. When we're fully on-diet he isn't so emotionall labile.

Sooo, I don't know how helpful that is. If you have a good practitioner, maybe they can help you try things. We did see improvement right away on the Tenex so maybe you can try it just to see? Again, I read that only about 30% of people respond really well to it (adhd symptoms & all), but for the people it does work for, it's great.

I think it's all kind of a crapshoot as to what's going to work for the kids. Diff. kids responding to different chemical overloads/deficiencies.

Keep us posted.

dfp

[ohmama]

dfp,
Thanks for all the info. I think we should all become doctors or get jobs in health food stores. It amazes me how much the parents need to know about these meds/natural alternatives not to mention diet and other treatment programs.

I'm not doing the Feingold program but maybe someday. I'm lucky if I can take a shower or even comb my hair everyday. One more thing would push me over the edge. So, I think if I can't follow the program completely I should wait till I can make the commitment before I look into it. I am careful to watch the labels for preservatives and artificial colors/flavorings. There's no sugar in our house and never any fast food or soda pop. My boys don't even know what candy is, no dental bills for us! I'm giving them a high protein diet but include vegetables and fruits so it's very balanced. I try to apply what I know about nutrition. They don't seem to have any reactions/allergies or sensitivities to the food they eat.

I am not pleased with my doctor at all. Is anyone? I think that is why I do so much research. Would like to find a new one but haven't had time to check it out. I will look more into the options for treatment so I can know if the doctor is giving me the best advice or not. It's hard for me to trust anyone. So many of these doctors are a disappointment.

[dfp]

Ohmama,
I agree about the dr. situation. We moved to our town a year ago and it's been awful finding the right dr., especially after we adored the dr we had at our old home. Then again the supports for our sons here are so much better. I have to laugh (ironically) that in our new town (near Boston, supposedly near some of the best medical care) I have met more incurious, antagonistic, pretentious and just plain bad doctors. One pediatrician asked me why I was calling him in a panic in July about my sons add/behavior issues. He said "ADD only happens in school so since we're on vacation it must not be ADD". Huh? The next ped. told me that MY anxiety was the problem and that my son (who was absolutely BOUNCING off the walls in that office) was fine. I did point out that if I could take my son out in public perhaps I wouldn't be so anxious. (I have the satisfaction here-- in the 3 months that my son has been so much better with the Tenex/Feingold, I have become a *much* more relaxed person. I'm not always near tears and don't have such trouble sleeping.)

We may have now found a good fellow (4th try) but I don't know him well enough to tell.

On the diet issue, I think you're way ahead of the game. Way better than me! My kids still get sugar.

I certainly get the overwhelmed feeling, though I'm much better after 3 good months. I resisted for a *LONG* time. Turns out for us Feingold wasn't a huge change in the way we did things. I used the foodlist for about 2 days until I realized I knew pretty much what was in there already. We have WholeFoods markets everywhere here so it's easy to keep away from the garbage. So except for a general awareness of additives/preservatives, which I already had, all I added was knowing which fruits were high in salicylates. It hasn't been that onerous. I'm just telling you since you already seem 7/8 of the way there, and if you wanted to try a little experiment you could do a fruit substitution for a week or so. I'd be happy to send you a list of high/low salicylate fruits/vegetables if you want.

However, I do hate that salicylate issue since the off-limits foods are otherwise so healthy, great antioxidants. I wonder if anyone's done a study that shows that Feingold kids grow up better behaved but die younger because of their antioxidant-deprived diets... Hee hee.

But you only do what you can. I know that feeling of absolutely not being able to do one more thing. I just wanted to tell you our experience since we have had great results but we don't follow the foodlists religiously and it hasn't been that big a deal.

So this was really long. Sorry for that. But good luck in whatever. It's all such a challenge. And so hard without good support. Thank goodness for these boards...

dfp