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Post by JohnBark on Dec 28, 2003 17:05:39 GMT -5
Catatonic or anyone,
This is what Biochemical Labs recommended for my DS in March 2003. Keep in mind that today we just finished our 6th week on FG in Stage 1. And we have seen very little improvement on his part. They recommend at:
Breakfast ~ Child's B Complex, Multiple Vitamin and Mineral tablet (w/ calcium, magnesium [no more than 50 mg], zinc and manganese in addition to the vitamins), Pantothenic Acid 50 mg, Vit. A 2500 IU, Vit. C 50 mg, Zinc 15 mg, and Manganese up to 20 mg.
Dinner ~ Multiple Vitamin and Mineral tablet, Vit. C 50 mg, Manganese up to 20 mg, Vit. E 40 IU, and Omega-3 oils
These recommendations came after we submitted a hair sample for testing.
Any thoughts on improving this? If so, recommended dosage too. Thanks!
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Post by ohmama on Dec 28, 2003 18:56:31 GMT -5
You didn't mention giving any Omega 3? Is this something you will be including in your treatment plan? I can't imagine not using this. Are you aware of the benefits? I would be glad to suggest some books to look into if you are interested. Right now I am rereading The Omega-3 Connection by Dr. Andrew Stoll. The evidence is overwhelming that this oil is necessary for the whole family, especially our kids to have better brain function. Please look into this book, you will love it.
If you want, I will share some of the information with you?
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Post by JohnBark on Dec 28, 2003 19:11:00 GMT -5
Ohmama,
sure there is Omega-3 in this routine. look under the dinner time portion of my original posting.
and yes, i would love any suggestions or advice.
Remember we are just finishing up Feingold Stage 1 after 6 weeks. There was very little change in my son's behavior both in and out of school. we home school. and NO cheating on FG, since we home school him. we elimated everthing and bought no products that had "( )" after the entry in the FG foodlist.
any advice and suggestions would be greatly appreciated. thanks!
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Post by ohmama on Dec 28, 2003 21:28:05 GMT -5
John,
Sorry, I didn't see that omega 3 part. I give this 3 times a day.
What is your breakdown of EPA and DHA? Have you just started on this? Are you noticing any behavior improvements yet? I know it takes a while.
I home school too and find it is better that way including the food part being under better control than what the schools feed the kids. It's a lot of work but I am hopeful it will pay off.
What is your sons age and weight? It would be better to know this in order to calculate the amounts of vitamins/minerals you have been advised to give.
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Post by JohnBark on Dec 29, 2003 9:44:18 GMT -5
My son is 7.5 years old and weighs in at 60 pounds.
Forgive me for asking this, but what is EPA and DHA? We started vitamins and supplements back in March of 2003 as my previous posting mentioned. We stayed with it until late July. Then, due to the amount of various pills my son was taking and the battle to get him to take them. We stopped. And it wasn't until a month later that we realized that the vitamins and supplements had helped some.
Now that we are 6 weeks into Feingold with little if any success, we want to add the vitamins and supplements back in. My wife had done most of the previous research. But, she has asked me to step in and attempt this now.
What are your thoughts?
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Post by ohmama on Dec 29, 2003 13:16:29 GMT -5
John,
The EPA and DHA are what make up the omega 3 long chain fatty acids. I won't get into the long complicated description of what these initials stand for but will try to keep it simple. If you will look on the label of your supplement bottle it will tell you the strength or amount of each of these per serving size. Tell me what the bottle label says on the contents of each gel cap. Also, who is the manufacturer? There are liquid forms of this available so it will make it easier for your son to take if that is a consideration. Not to take them would be a big mistake for his brain health and total treatment program.
The vitamin/mineral amounts you are giving are too low. If you will allow me to advise you on the fatty acids I will leave the vitamins in the hands of Catatonic who has done the research and can give you a detailed report on what is a necessary theraputic amount for your childs weight.
I have done extensive research on the fatty acids and this has been my main focus so would be pleased to tackle this aspect. Rather than start from scratch on this advice I will wait for you to get back with me on what you are now using and we can go from there.
Also, an important question is what is your sons dx? And are you convinced it is accurate and complete? That is to say without overlapping conditions? What is the main problem behavior you are trying to address at this time?
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Post by JohnBark on Dec 29, 2003 14:27:29 GMT -5
ohmama,
dx being diagnosis? i'll assume so. yes, we are as sure as his doctor. he diagnosed him "officially" after about 2 months of testing. he has ADHD with a very, very high IQ. and he gets frustrated easily with very basic tasks and can't remember what he just did. for example, while doing a sheet of simple addition with the first problem being 6+7, he'll get it correct in a very fast way. and then the 6th problem might be 6+7 and struggling figuring it out.
the main problem maybe a "learned" behavior. but, he resisted and will throw a fit over doing school work during school time with my wife. being disrespectful, saying bad things, hitting and kicking at times.
is this what you were wondering about?
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Post by JohnBark on Dec 29, 2003 14:37:49 GMT -5
ohmama,
what we were using was in my first post. however, we quit using it in late July of this year. Here is what a lab recommended we do from a hair sample we submitted.
This is what Biochemical Labs recommended for my DS in March 2003. Keep in mind that today we just finished our 6th week on FG in Stage 1. And we have seen very little improvement on his part. They recommend at:
Breakfast ~ Child's B Complex, Multiple Vitamin and Mineral tablet (w/ calcium, magnesium [no more than 50 mg], zinc and manganese in addition to the vitamins), Pantothenic Acid 50 mg, Vit. A 2500 IU, Vit. C 50 mg, Zinc 15 mg, and Manganese up to 20 mg.
Dinner ~ Multiple Vitamin and Mineral tablet, Vit. C 50 mg, Manganese up to 20 mg, Vit. E 40 IU, and Omega-3 oils
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Post by ohmama on Dec 29, 2003 15:28:43 GMT -5
John, Do you have that bottle of Omega 3 still? If so, what does the label say? There are a few things that are important with selecting the product you will use. This is my opinion and some people will not agree. It seems many think all fish oil is the same based on the amount listed in the ingredients. Many are also swayed by the cost and will purchase accordingly. I feel the manufacturer and purification process as well as the concentration is just as or even more important as the amount of EPA and DHA content. I will tell you why and give some suggestions on what to use. In 1995 Greenpeace analyzed various fish oils for organochlorine pesticides and other contaminants. Many DHA based products do not meet these standards. The best DHA comes from the coastal waters of Norway. Unfortunately, many manufacturers import DHA from Columbia, which is laden with pesticides and heavy metals. For this reason it is necessary to know the origin of your oil. A call to the manufacturer will answer this. Another thing called molecular distillation is on my personal list of an acceptable product. Last but not least is that it be pharmaceutical quality. While I am aware that results can be achieved with a lesser quality product they are not acceptable to me. It is a matter of choice. I don't think your son has a "learned" behavior. I think what you describe is more of an anxiety issue. Was this mentioned in your dx (diagnosis)? I think you will find some relief in giving the vitamins/minerals as well as the fatty acids. It will take a while to see, I hope you are patient. You have a good start with the Feingold Diet plan and home school. In my opinion the best products for omega 3 fish oil are from Nordic Naturals. They are 3rd party tested, pharmaceutical quality, and molecularly distilled. There are various balances of EPA and DHA available. You can check these out on their website www.nordicnaturals.com I have no financial interest in this company by the way. I am looking toward the liquid omega 3 as being good for our family. We are treating "ring of fire" adhd, very similar to bipolar, also depression and anxiety issues. As far as dose... according to Dr. Andrew Stoll ("The omega 3 connection", please get this book) If you are using the omega 3 for health, mood, or cognitive enhancement, 1 to 2 grams (1000 - 2000mg) daily of tatal omega 3 (EPA plus DHA) is probably adequate. If you are using them for mood elevation or stabilization, a higher amount is sometimes required. These are adult doseages. I would give half that dose for a child of 60 lbs to start with. It is safe to give more if needed. We had to use several grams to get results and my boys are 70 lbs (10 year old twins). So you see each child is different. Almost forgot, you must give adaquate amounts of vitamin E and vitamin C with these fish oils to prevent oxidation. It is all explained in Dr. Stoll's book. Let me know if you have any questions. I am glad to be of any help I can. I have to run and hope you will overlook any spelling errors as I don't have any more time right now to correct these. |
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Post by JohnBark on Dec 29, 2003 16:00:58 GMT -5
ohmama,
the Omega 3 we were using was Coromega, Omega 3 fish oil supplement.
EPA 290mg/350mg
DHA 190mg/230mg
first number is GC by weight %
and second number is GC by area %
also Vit. C 25 mg and Vit. E 3 IU
what do you think?
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Post by ohmama on Dec 29, 2003 18:58:42 GMT -5
John,
I would say if this is what you will use, to give it 3 times a day after meals. This amount can be reduced after a few weeks but may be necessary to get you started and make up for shortages almost always present in beginning treatment. Add vitamin C and vitamin E at the same time making 3 doses a day (given with the omega 3). The vitamin C should be a total of at least 500mg or more a day and the vitamin E as natural mixed tocopherols in the amount of at least 300 IU to 400 IU total per day.
Another good book for your research the next time you're at the library or book store is "Your Miracle Brain" by Jean Carper. This will give you a complete view of all the vitamins as well as fatty acids and what they do. If you can incorporate some of this information to your childs lessons on a kids level of course he may be willing to cooperate in his treatment. Hope this helps. I know Catatonic will have more to add that you will find of value.
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Post by catatonic on Dec 29, 2003 20:37:29 GMT -5
John, I'll second ohmama on the Omega-3. 3 capsules daily sounds like a good dose. Like you, I use an Omega-3 formulation that contains more EPA in addition to the DHA. It works very well for us. I'm careful not to let my boy's DHA total fall below 480mg daily. His EPA is at 720mg. We've experimented a fair bit, including smaller capsules that provided the necessary level of DHA without all the additional EPA (advantage was smaller size of capsule). Experiment was NOT successful. Nor were other experiments with flax seed oil. On the vitamins...first of all, have you tested your son for magnesium deficiency to determine whether you are simply supplementing or addressing a deficiency? You can do the Cvostek test at home. If you're just supplementing, a basic cal/mag tablet is fine...typically providing 250mg calcium and 125mg magnesium. Skip the calcium if he's a milk drinker. If you're correcting a deficiency, you need to give at least 360mg magnesium daily (that's 6mg per pound of body weight, so increase it as his weight increases). I'd advise a 400mg tablet, since they're easy to find (for example, "UltraMag" by Source Naturals). I won't get into all the ins and outs of different magnesium formulations at the moment. But the amount of magnesium you are using is much too low. Magnesium is an absolutely critical nutrient for the brain's neurotransmitter functioning (as well as for cardiac health). I recommend looking at the following website: www.mgwater.com and if you're really interested, reading Seelig and Rosanoff's book "The Magnesium Factor". You are also not providing enough Vitamin E. In conjunction with Omega-3 supplementation, you have to provide at least 100IU of Vitamin E (some experts recommend 200IU). It's good that your multi contains zinc and manganese. These are important. If you can use one that also contains tiny amounts of selenium and copper, even better. I'm not sure what a child's B-complex is. It may be too wimpy, though. A B-50 is about the minimum strength you want to go with. This provides 50mg of each B vitamin and (usually) 400mcg of folic acid. There will often be some "extras" in there as well like choline. That's fine. This seems to be a key vitamin for my boy's emotional stability. Even switching brands has been known to throw him into a tailspin. Supplements took as a while to kick in -- about 6 weeks. But they were worth the wait. I highly recommend reading Laura Stevens' book "12 Effective Ways to Help Your ADD/ADHD Child" as it contains very specific recommendations for supplements as well as paths to pursue should diet and nutrients not have a significant enough impact. Laura has a website where you can get the book and a bunch of other info as well: users.nlci.com/nutrition/ |
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Post by JohnBark on Dec 29, 2003 22:07:24 GMT -5
addressing the magnesium question you asked of me.
according to the biochemical laboratories report his Magnesium level is 1.8, the normal value is 4.0 to 8.0.
based on this information, i would say he is deficient in this area. wouldn't you agree?
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Post by JohnBark on Dec 29, 2003 22:33:56 GMT -5
Ok, to review so far:
DS is 7.5 years old and weighs a whopping 60 pounds.
(btw, we haven't start this yet, but want to immediately)
Omega-3 w/ EPA 290mg/350mg and DHA 190mg/230mg 3 times a day after each meal.
Vit. C 500+mg (250 in a.m. and 250 p.m. if possible or all in the a.m.?) per day
Vit. E 300-400 IU (natural mixed tocopherols) half in the a.m. and half in the p.m. or all in the a.m.?
Calcium 250mg/day all in the a.m.
Magnesium 360+mg/day (Cat. you advised a 400mg tablet in the a.m., correct?)
our Multi Vitamin w/ zinc, mangenese, selenium, and copper if i can find it.
Vit. B B-50 what is that a tablet? all in the a.m. or split it up?
anything else you can think of that i'm missing?
I think our multi vitamin contains Vit. A. I need to double check on that. What amounts of this would you suggest? it must be from beta caratin (sp?) correct?
thanks so much for your advice.
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Post by ohmama on Dec 30, 2003 0:09:58 GMT -5
John,
Just to comment on the omega 3, vitamins E and C. Take all of these three times a day, after each meal and at the same time. They will work better together if given this way.
I am excited for you as I know this will make a difference.
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