part-time depression????

[dfp]

My son has come to a point recently, where he's furious with everything and anything while he's at home (at the same time berating himself horribly, saying he's bad, etc), but I helped out at his school today and he was sunny and warm and fine. He was well behaved, was a good listener, and treated others well.

I realize people say that kids need a place to unwind and let go when they get home but this is ridiculous.

When he finally pushes me too far and I cry (a nightly experience now), he always feels bad and is "back to normal".

He also gets better after dinner.

I have an appointment with the ped. psych. on Thursday, but has this happened to anyone?

Whenever I bring him anywhere he's a doll and so the world thinks I'm bonkers.

Can he be depressed part-time? I thought of bipolar disorder, but I figured that would manifest itself at school too.

Any ideas?

Thanks.

dfp

[mskris]

While there's no diagnosis of part-time depression, it could be that he manages to "hold it together" when he's away from home, but loses it once he's among his family.

I have depression and I generally am able to keep it reigned in at work, but I tend to lose it at home.

However, it could be something else, as well. You mention he's better after dinner; I know my kids (especially adhd son) act up a lot more when they're hungry. Is it possible to give him a snack as soon as he walks in the door without interfering with his appetite for dinner? Also, is he on meds? It could be a "rebound" effect as the meds wear off. We had that experience with all the stimulants to some extent, but with Adderall the worst. We haven't had a problem with the Strattera.

I agree that it seems strange he should be so different from one place to another, but these might explain it.
Good luck.

Kris

[dfp]

He's a total mystery to me sometimes. I think we'll be investigating the depression thing a little more. I have an appt. on Thursday with the psych-- just me, so I can talk more freely with him about this.

He is on meds, Tenex, but he gets an afternoon dose so I don't think he's rebounding from that.

I'm also going to experiment with timing of snacks. He's a very reluctant eater so it's hard, but definitely worth trying.

Maybe it's sleep-related too. He's gone to bed slightly later for a few weeks and perhaps he's just too tired. He's had 2 good nights in a row and today for the first time in WEEKS he was SLIGHTLY better, but I'll take what I can get. He got to bed earlier again today so we'll see how tomorrow goes.

Thanks for the response and also your personal experience. It was very helpful.

dfp

[mskris]

Glad to hear I might have helped.

Ahhhh, lack of sleep - it's a real killer. My son sleeps great, but if he's up too late a couple of nights a week, we can almost guarantee problems. I usually can tell when it's coming, because he has night terrors when he's overtired. Amazing how sleep deprivation mimics all the symptoms of adhd, too.

We really have the sleep issue with our dd, who's not adhd. This child has NEVER slept, and still at almost 6 doesn't sleep through the night and fights going to bed. She's having some trouble in kg and I'm convinced getting her sleep is half the battle!! It never was too much of an issue until school started...

So yes, sleep could be the problem, too. Good luck. I hope things get better.

Kris

[dfp]

Thanks for the reply. I did want to report that today he was even better. That's 3 good nights of sleep in a row and he's regaining his composure. His brother was really annoying this afternoon and ds7 just used his words and worked through it. I was so pleased.

If this is a sleep issue, all I can say is I'm AMAZED that a child can founder so badly on 1/2 hour less sleep a night. It doesn't seem so much, and a 9pm bedtime at age 7 1/2 doesn't seem *that* late, but if that's what it is the improvement is dramatic with an 8:30 bedtime.

p.s. my son had a real problem with nighmares/terrors too until we started restricting chocolate in the afternoons/evenings. So no more chocolate chip cookies for dessert & the nightmares ended. Go figure.

Thanks again for the help.

dfp

[AnneM]

Hmmm ... speaking of depression ... my son was diagnosed with depression when he was 13. He is now 15 and this is right now not an issue thankfully... BUT .... when he was in the "thick" of his depression he definitely wasn't (to the outisde world) depressed 24 hours a day ... he was often witnessed "laughing and seemingly having a good time" with friends .... but at home he was angry with the world, morose and difficult ... so YES I say it is possible to have a "part-time" depression ... but I would say that in reality this is depression which is "well covered" whilst with people he isn't so secure with .... (i.e. his family being where he feels most secure and hence is allowed to show how he really feels!) ...

To me (apart from the anger with the world and the moroseness) one of the things which REALLY struck me at that time was that when watching TV he wouldn't be "watching" it at all ... he was staring dejectedly to the living room wall ... he was also (when not angry) very quiet and would disappear to his room not really wanting to discuss anything with any of us ... BUT during the day at school he was functioning and laughing with his friends ...

Those are my observations on depression... but I am sure they vary a lot from person to person ...

[dfp]

Anne,
Thank you for your experience. Your situation actually doesn't sound like ours so that's interesting. Of all the descriptions of conditions I've read, though my son has a little bit of some of them, he really doesn't fit into the one for depression, nor bipolar disorder. But still the psychiatrist thinks one or the other is a factor. He's said that my son has a 'mood disorder- NOS', since he doesn't fit neatly into any category.

Of course this complicates everything...

My son is spectacularly negative and morose when he's having a tantrum/explosion. But the rest of the time he seems confident and truly finds joy in his environment, friends and family.

I'm taking a huge breath today. He had a wonderful day. I have NO idea why, since yesterday we had two huge blowouts and we've done nothing different. But I will not look a gift horse in the mouth and I've enjoyed smiling today for the first time in what seems like weeks. Of course, he's not in bed yet so there's always time for a good one-- I can hear it brewing right now. Off I go!

Tomorrow is another day.

Thanks.

dfp

[AnneM]

hi dfp - oh it can be complicated and confusing eh? I really hope that you find the right answer soon and that you can then move forward ... when my son was diagnosed I can honestly say "i had no idea" and yet upon diagnosis so much made sense! ... plus of course it meant we have been able to move forward and I now have a happy, easy going son ... a very different boy at 15 than he was at 13!

I know you will get to the bottom of it and I am wishing you LOTS OF LUCK !!!

[dfp]

Anne,
Thank you for your kind words. They come at a good time! Would you mind me asking what your course of treatment has been for your son? It's always so helpful to see and learn from what others are doing, understanding, of course that everyone's situations are different!

We had another moderately good day today. Not easy, but better. I'll take what I can get. But we're really still walking on eggshells. We'll see.

Thanks again.

dfp

[AnneM]

Hi dfp ... my son is on Concerta and St Johns Wort ... a combination which has been amazing for him. HOWEVER, this is NOT a combination which works for everyone and it really depends upon the underlying diagnosis ... for example we are extremely lucky as there is no ODD or bipolar present but if these are possibly present - particularly bipolar - then this is definitely (i undertand!) not recommended!

So it really is a matter of "getting to the bottom of it" ...
but on the way to getting "to the bottom of it" it can feel very confusing ....

Please let us know how your appointment goes ....

[swmom]

dfp -

We're seeing a lot of what you're seeing. She can turn on a good mood when she needs to, i.e. at school, with a friend, etc. But she's not always in a terrible mood at home, just sometimes. It is weird and sometimes we have wondered if she's got a low blood sugar thing going on. Dips in mood can be caused by low blood sugar. You might want to check that out, too.

My daughter was diagnosed last week with a mood disorder(NOS) with her main thing being anxiety but some depression, too. Perhaps anxiety becomes depression when they can't deal with what's worrying them? Is your child anxious about anything?

Anyway, just some things to think about...

[dfp]

Thanks, Anne for the info. I also understand that you're in the UK, and the St. John's Wort is better regulated there. Here you have no idea what you're getting.

We did meet with the psych. and he did say that if there is a bipolar issue, it's really important not to give an antidepressant because it can make them scary manic. So his idea was to try Risperdal (Risperidone). I had a hard time with this, though maybe we'll have to go that route soon. But Risperdal can have side effects which are frightening to me. I guess when he gets bad enough we'll make our peace with the side effects and go that route.

SWMMOM, I read the description that you posted of what your psych said about your dd. It could have been a description of my son-- mood disorder (nos), anxiety, etc. No, my son isn't anxious about a particular thing, but he has a great deal of anxiety about how he will behave in certain circumstances, and feels very anxious when he has misbehaved or had a tantrum. He really beats himself up over it.

I read an interesting thing yesterday, which seemed to fit my child to a T. It made me feel better for some reason. Here's the link.

216.239.37.104/search?q=cache:qN50v1a7b88J:www.mental-health-matters.com/articles/print.php%3FartID%3D158+interrupt+hyperfocus&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Of special interest to me was the section on "Hyperfocus and Outbursts". It's a perfect description.

And yes, I think blood sugar does play a part here. My son ALWAYS improves after a good meal (high-protein). Too many carbs send him round the bend too. Same with my younger, non-adhd son. High-protein breakfasts & meals turned that son from an endlessly crying, clingy, whiny, hyperactive child, to a pleasant, easy going boy. I wish it was so easy with my adhd son... But blood sugar is definitely connected somehow.

The other thing we've discovered is HUGE is to get enough sleep. We've put my adhd son to bed 1/2 hour earlier for a week and we're seeing improvements in his behavior. All is not well yet, but some things are better.

SWMMOM, what methods are you using to treat your dd?


dfp

[swmom]

dfp -

My d was just diagnosed last week with this non-specific mood disorder with the main thing being anxiety and some depression so we haven't gotten into the treatment yet. She has some learning problems which the psych thinks are contributing greatly to this anxiety, weird stuff like fine motor problems, visual processing issues, auditory processing problem with sound blending, etc. Remediating those will help significantly the psych said. Therapy will also help her he said but can we get on his schedule anytime in the next months, no! We'll just have to wait I guess. She's already on Strattera for ADHD and that's helped her alot. We have an appt. with a child psychiatrist tomorrow for medication review. I DO NOT want to add another medication. Each prescription now costs us $50 a pop.
Managing the Strattera with the weight gains and losses has been a nightmare. The last thing I need is another med to manage, especially an anti-depressant with all the concern going on now about giving them to children. Scares me to death. I'm hoping we can add some natural alternatives to deal with the anxiety and depression and plan to ask him about that.

Incidentally, you mentioned Risperdal. Check out the FDA's MEDWATCH sight on that. Seems like they had some info on that med as well as Lexapro recently.

[AnneM]

dfp said:

Thanks, Anne for the info. I also understand that you're in the UK, and the St. John's Wort is better regulated there. Here you have no idea what you're getting.

We did meet with the psych. and he did say that if there is a bipolar issue, it's really important not to give an antidepressant because it can make them scary manic. dfp

Hi dfp ... and yes I understand this is absolutely true regarding SJW and that it is much better regulated here in the UK ... in fact I understand (but might be wrong) that the UK/European regulations concerning ALL herbs, supplements etc is considerably more rigid in the UK than in the US ...

... but also the other point is that SJW is an antidepressant (albeit a "natural" one) and therefore it definitely wouldn't be a good idea anyway for your son based on what you say your psych thinks ....

GOOD LUCK!!

[dfp]

Yep,
Sounds familiar. My son is hard-of-hearing, has problems with working memory and organization, which the neuropsych says exacerbates his anxiety.

We also have a hard time getting into see anyone good for therapy.

Thanks for the link to the Risperdal info. The stuff scares me to death, that's why we've held up before using it. I've just got to try other methods first. That being said, it appears to be very effective too. But I'm watching and waiting. DS is sick right now (scarlet fever) so we're having a break-- good sleep, no tantrums.

Well, keep us posted, especially if you find something that works for you. We have had good luck with the Feingold diet, omega 3, magnesium, and a good multi, for what it's worth. We've found that my son gets incredibly emotional & has horrible rages if he drinks any kind of apple juice/apple cider too, so salicylates are a problem here.

Take care,
DFP