Son hard to be around on stims..other disorder?

[CJsMOM28]

It has been SOOO long since I have been here,I'll try my best to not make this too long,but it'll be hard! I'll re-introduce myself and our Hectic ADHD lives,which is mostly a hectic ADHD school life! I have a 10.5 year old Son, fourth grade who was diagnosed two years ago with GAD (generalized anxiety disorder) and then later on ADHD. I am wondering if he even has ADHD and it's something else, or a comborbid of several disorders. He is currently not taking meds,mainly to see how his school life will be (more on that later in the post) he was previously taking Concerta 36mg. He has been on MANY different stimulants from Ritalin based ones,to Adderall Xr and the short acting Adderall.



I haven't seen results like I believe I should with his medications. Since second grade I've gone over counteless rating scale sheets with teachers and they all tell me (teacher and scale) they don't see a much of a difference,if at all, when a med is changed or the dosage is changed. I have just been patient thinking, that one day we will find the right dose or med,but I am really losing my patience,being the very patient person I am! A week before Christmas holiday I had a conference with his teacher and she said she had other ADHD kids in her room and could tell a difference in them with med changes or days they come without their meds. She asked if I should try sending my Son to school without it, I didn't respond,thinking how horrible it would be!Then she mentioned to me that she wonders if he even has it. I didn't know what to say because I have even wondered!I asked her if she thought of a learning disability,she said no,so did last years teacher. He has a high IQ makes good grades, and did even before medication,but it is SO hard for him to stay on task,and complete work. His time managment is terrible,even at home,he has so many characteristics of ADHD! His Social skills are terrible,he is very impulsive,very argumentative,more with his peers,than adults. He is more of the innattentive type,not at all hyper,he can act a little goofy sometimes though,and his sense of humour is different.





The last day of school before Christmas break my Son lost his temper and hit a girl,because she hit him, (I heard barely) and was getting on his nerves. I was in so much shock! This was NOT my Son! One of the Moms who was leaving after picking up her child said that this girl (same age as son) was really really agravating him,but still, not to the point of leaving a bruise on her forehead!. This girl and my Son have not gotten along in the past It was at five oclock when it happened and his medication was given at 7:15 that morning,which was the Concerta 36mg, so I don't know if it was a rebound thing or what? Plus Concerta is suppposed to last longer than others. I also noticed that he had developed tics a few weeks prior to this incident,I even lowered it to 18mgs and the tics were still their.Anyways he appologized to the girl,so did she,the director was also in shock, telling me he has always been one of her most well behaved kids,but lately he has been acting different. She said he has been having a hard time getting along with others,which he usually got along with better than his classmates,he actually looked forward to afterschool care. He was misbehaving also with the lady in charge of his group,being disrespectful towards her,which is also NOT like him. She said he has been acting very withdrawn too,which I had noticed,when I would pick him up. I asked her how long she has noticed this,she said about a month,which is the time we started the Concerta 36mg,which was first tried at 18mg but saw but was not affective for his attention. I don't know why this was never mentioned to me before a whole month!




SOOO trying get to the main point of my post, LOL....We stopped the Concerta the day of the hitting incident,it was Christmas break, and we wanted to give him a break,he was also on no other meds. During this time my Son seemed so happy,so easy to get along with, I didn't go through the arguing battles that I usually have to go through,he didn't make big deals outta small things,he even answered us the first time,and seemed attentive to us,everything was great,! We decided Tuesday, his first day back at school,to take a chance and send him back,without any medication,and without the teachers knowledge of it. I told her in a note we had switched meds but thats it. I also told my Son to keep it a secret. Thursday,I sent in a rating scale telling her we needed this because of the new medication, to see it's effectiveness,which I haven't recieved,HOPEFULLY will Monday!



I asked my Son if he could tell a difference and he said no, except he was worried Tuesday,worried that leaving his X box game on would cause a fire at our house and kill our dog! He was diagnosed first with generalized anxiety disorder before the adhd,but when we started the stims,we notice the anxiety went away,and never really came back. He recently also asked to have more lights on near his bedroom door at bedtime,since we have stopped the stims. Wednesday morning, (second day of school)I gave in and gave him a small amount of stimulant, short acting adderall 5mg. I did this mostly because he didn't sleep well the night before.This morning I gave him the same medication but 10mg instead of five. All week he has had a terrible time with his classmates,which he also was before Christmas break, but this weak all I heard was about the arguments he was in and the names he was called. The days he had been called names,he had no meds,the days this week he did have meds, (yesterday and today )even though in small amounts, I heard of arguments,and of course,he was at no fault! In his eyes! He has had a terrible time getting along with others,or being seen as different.Every year, I hear the same stories of him being disagreeable,argumentive,going on and on about something,until he tries to prove his point,and not minding his own business. ON medication,he is more serious,but disagreeable,argumentative etc,. OFF of medication,or a small amount,he is seen by his peers as goofy (he can be a class clown) and they call him "weird",which he tels me most of his class calls him this,which breaks my heart!He is also an only child so this really bothers me,he needs socialization!



I am wondering if their may be childhood onset bipolar in here somewhere, because of the teachers comments of seeing no change in meds,his behavior at school,and most of all how he was soo easy to get along with when NOT on meds,he may have been a little goofy but we saw him as "happy" he was not his usual argumentive self, how he was on medication and Ive read that stims can exacerbate bipolar symptoms. We usually don't medicate him on the weekends unless it's something social,like a birthday party or something,but I guess it took more than a two day weekend to see a difference in him. It's all so confusing! I can't wait to get that rating scale back from his teacher,and get to my appointment,I didn't mention that the doctor I'm seeing my Son is now seeing so hopefully her seeing my diagnoses will help us with his,he has only seen her twice. The doctor asked about ADHD or other disorders in us as his parents,and I said I don't know but something is not right with me,I need to set up an appointment! LOL,so I did!


If anyone can give me their oppinion, or if their child has gone through anything similar to this, I'd love a response/advice! I have probably over analyzed this to death! But I am really wondering if he has not been getting the right treatment all along! I hope this has made sense,I have been sleepy typing this.Thanks for letting me vent! I promise my other posts want be as long!

Thanks again!

CJs MOM

[Amsmom]

CJ's mom, it is so good to hear from you. i'm sorry you are going through all this, and i can totally relate. it took 3 yrs to get the right med combination for my almost 9 yr old ds, who has adhd/bipolar. my ds's negative behaviors increased on all stims. from my experience, i see more anxiety than bp symptoms in your ds. were the stims prescribed for the add-type symptoms or the anxiety? i'm not familiar w/ stims being used for anxiety. has the dr ever mentioned something like paxil for the anxiety? i have seen it be very beneficial, so you may want to ask. for the inattentive symptoms, strattera might be worth looking into since it isn't a stim. here is a helpful link to learn more about early onset bp:
cabf.org/learning/about.htm
sounds like your ds's mood swings are a reaction to how his classmates treat him than a disorder. (kids can be so mean)
let us know how it goes with the new dr for both cj and you! we are here for you!

[CJsMOM28]

Hi Amsmom

Thanks for the nice welcome! It's so nice to know that there are others out there, who know, and understand what your going through. Yes, it seems like we are NEVER gonna get the right med or combo,but I'm hanging tough!

DS was first evaluated as having the anxiety in second grade,he was put on Paxil (small dose),but we couldn't tell a difference,and this is when we started seeing the difficulty he had with his peers,actually he had difficulty before the paxil too.His anxiety was so bad that his teacher had to hold him tight nearly every morning to keep him from running out the door after me. He was afraid that I would get in a car wreck and he would never see me again! He had worries that a child should not have had.


Thats when we started noticing the ADHD. He was in another world,plus his behaviour towards his peers was not good,time management and all...so we started the stims,after getting the diagnoses. Actually it was Strattera,what a nightmare! This was nearly at the end of second grade. We noticed his anxiety was taken care of when the Metadate ER (ritalin) was started, his second med.Which to me is strange, because I've read that stims can make anxiety worse?!

We then took him out of the private school and started third grade at a public,(starting still on metadate)this is his second year there,and I'm still getting the same talk from the teachers as I did from his second grade teacher,except for the anxiety part,he walks right into school with no problem. Third and this years fourth grade teachers have said, he still has a hardtime staying on task,needs alot of reminders,is the last one to finish his work,usually needs to be hurried along,argues with classmates,is disagreeable with them makes small things big deals,etc.


I am wondering though, if there still is anxiety,especially when he is told his has X amount of time to get a paper done.I am now looking into a 504 or an IEP for these reasons.


I can't believe I forgot to mention the Strattera in my last post!Especially rememembering the horror we went through! That was his very first med,it had JUST came out. He was soo horrible to get along with,his ADHD was better than how he was with the Strattera,and we gave it the eight weeks too,it was a hard eight weeks!

I feel like I am medicating him so others (peers) see him as acting his age,or see him as not being different. When he is medicated,he does mature and act his age,if not older. BUT when he is medicated,your walking on egg shells around him!


Thanks for listening.... again!

[Linda]

Hi and welcome back I guess I would be disagreeable and want to argue too if I had a time frame on me. Poor kid ...he wants to DO IT He also wants to fit in with his peers and finding it hard Being 10 is hard for him too.

When was the last time he was reevaluated? I know I am not much help here but I think I would look into the 504...Good Luck

[CJsMOM28]

Linda!

Yeah, I really hate it when he comes home with a D or an F on his "timed" math tests! GRRR . He knows his multiplycation tables very well too,also he is very good in math.I know instead of thinking or writing down the answers he is worried about how much time he has left and is looking at the clock instead of his paper,plus all of his unanswered problems are counted wrong! I've told his teacher this a million times! He really isn't timed on anything except for these multiplication/division math tests,he just needs more time,he is like this at home too.

It takes hime FOREVER,even at home to get simple things done,it's as if he thinks the clock has stopped just for him.I love him to death, but I can see where his teacher is coming from on that part, because he is as slow as sap,bless his little heart! But I do think it's SO stupid these "timed" test!Especailly for an anxious ADHD kid! Whats the purpose?! These time issues are the main reason for checking into the 504/IEP. I am getting sick to death of hearing his teacher talk about his time management and being slow to finish,plus the remarks on his report cards.


On his report card the other day he got a B in citizenship and the reason he didn't get an A was she had typed below it he needs to stay on task. excuse me but isn't THAT a part of ADHD, having a hard time staying on task! So he is getting graded on things that he can not help! His teacher knows his hard time staying on task GRRRR. I know it was just a B and not an F,but still, I don't think it's fair. He also got a C in reading because below the grade,she said he was "weak" in his reading comprehension,another ADHD trait! He is on a sixth grade reading level, but has a really hard time remembering what he has read,which is the reading comprehension.



He goes to a therapist every other week,and she recommended getting an outside educational evaluation,to see if he is maybe bored (his IQ is in gifted range)or if there is an underlying learning disorder. The Doctors around here (the good ones), that do these evaluations,don't do insurance only medicaid. We have insurance and the cheapest I have found was $ 750.00, so hopefully when I call the insurance co,I can get a reimbursement. I want this done ASAP!


My Husband thinks we should just go ahead and have the school evaluate him,even though it want be as detailed as a private eval,but hopefully by then we can have the $ for the private eval. His next appointment with the Psychiatrist,which is also the one I'll see on the 12th,will be Jan 24th. I am gonna call her Monday and leave her a message (she hardly answers her phone)that I won't some more evaluations done then.


Thanks again,for listening and letting me vent!!

[Linda]

I would let the school evaluate too......that is how we handled it and they did a thorough job.His (Paul's) Ped.did an eval. and then we compared everything.

If you are not satisfied with the schools eval....then I would go outside the school. I wouldn't be to surprised if your son wasn't bored....I can't tell you how many times I have heard Paul tell me school was boring....I feel like screaming sometimes....challenge the kid

It seems like with our kids it is always something but you gotta love em

[CJsMOM28]

Thats probably what we will end up doing,let the school do the evaluation first,then if were not satisfied, we'll hopefully have the $ to have it done privately. He never says he is bored,but he complains ALOT about school,he may not even realize he is bored, but I wonder. BTW Linda, I love your Sons name,Paul is my Sons name too! Actually, it is his first name he is called by his middle,my Husbands name is Paul too!


Opps! I just realized before posting this, that this is the ADULT ADHD message board and here I am posting about my child......sorry

CJsMOM

[Linda]

We found you..that's all that matters

[Amsmom]

cjsmom, no problem about posting in the general adult section! i thought you might get more responses if we move your thread to the medication or education section. i asked the other mods and the adminstrator to see if we can get it moved for you. we will keep you posted (hehe)

btw, great idea with the 504/IEP!!! my ds has had an IEP since kindergarten and i couldnt imagine him being in school any other way. there are only 10 kids in his class and 2 teachers!!! it is awesome and the way to go!!!!

[CJsMOM28]

Linda ~ I am SOO glad that I have found you guys too! I don't feel so alone anymore.... what a wonderful feeling!

Amsmom ~Thank you so much! That would be great if it could be moved over to the other sections!I thought about it,but look at all of the typing I have done,especially my first post! I should be ashamed of myself!

That is great your Son being in a class of ten,my Son used to be, when in a private school two years ago, we liked it,but we had other problems with that school (another long story). I hope we can get the IEP or 504 started soon.

Thanks again ladies!!

[rosyred45]

CJSMOM, sorry to be so long saying welcome back.

Also sorry about how your son is doing with the meds. I don't have a lot of knowlege with them, so I'm not much of a help there.

But I agree with Linda, let the school do an evaluation, that way they can see what they are dealing with more closely, and not just looking at a report from somewhere else.

I have been blessed with the fact that our Principal's son has adhd, she is very good when it comes to dealing with Mikey. Before we got his 504, we must have looked like the biggest bunch of babies, every meeting I would cry because I KNEW whatever Mikey did was off the cuff and not malicous.

So that would get us all going ???Aren't we the adults here

Anyhow, look into the 504 and possible IEP. They cut Mikey's work on the tedious things, changed his disipline-----he is NOT a time out kid-------, and a few other things.

Good luck
Kaiti

[Amsmom]

cjsmom,
your thread was moved by annie, our lovely and talented administrator!

[CJsMOM28]

THANKS ANNIE FOR MOVING THIS THREAD,YOU ARE WONDERFUL!!


Kaiti Thanks for the welcome back!


Yeah it seems that I am medicating him,to make him more mature,if that makes sense. I can definetly tell he acts his age then,otherwise he comes off as very goofy and the looks he gets from other kids! So Iguess you could say there is some hperactivity there,he is also very impulsive!


Also I've been medicating him for the attention part too, for school,at home his attention isn't so bad,except for being slow to get things done.So during Christmas break I thought,if the teacher and teachers from the past see no difference when a med is changed or the dosage is upped then why bother!

Thats why we thought we'd give it a try WITHOUT meds,last week. The anxiety has come back and he has been acting SOO immature and goofy,thats where the name calling has been coming in I think. Kids at school have been mainly calling him weird.


Yesterday he had his Cousin over,and he ended up staying the night (still here) his cousin is a week older and he has ADHD,his is worse than ds, but he isn't as silly as mine. My nephew was medicated yesterday morning,ds wasn't. DS started acting so silly and I hate to say it but "wierd" that I gave him a small 10mg of Ritalin so he would calm down.

His cousin was even telling him to "chill" and giving him "I'm worried about you"looks. Soon after I gave him the Ritalin they went outside and a boy was outside,who is rarely around, that my Son dislikes. This boy called his cousin a name,then my Son nearly started a fight,with this kid,and this kid is much bigger than mine! So DS went from silly,goofy to serious and having those around him walking on egg shells!

I had to go outside and have them come in,thats when I heard DS telling this boy to shut his mouth and telling him to "come on over he wasn't afraid of him!" which in my opinion sounded like starting a fight. This is NOT like my Son at all! This shocked me, this was the first time I have ever heard him talk like this! He is getting a red belt in Karate this month,two away from black, I hope it's not going to his head!Hard to tell because he has a very low self-esteem.

I asked his cousin what happened and he said this boy did call him a name,but he just ignored him,and acted like it was no big deal,DS made a big deal out of it like he usually does about things, when he is ON his medicine. GEESH


Kaiti
You are so lucky to have a Principal at your Sons school who is understanding of the ADHD. I haven't really had much to do with ds's Principal,but I guess I'm fixing to for the IEP or 504 coming up!

to ya all! Thanks again!

[AnneM]

Aw shucks thanks Amsmom and Cjsmom!!

Now onto your thread cjsmom ... it sounds like you are having a tough time both on or off the stimulants ... which makes me (and I am NOT a doctor) think that the stimulants are NOT the right med for your son !! .. You mention the possibility of bipolar and don't forget that if bipolar is present then the stimulants are DEFINITELY a no-go area ...

It does sound like you really need to perhaps re-address your son's diagnosis ... Speaking for my own son the stimulants have always calmed him down ... in fact HIS problem is that the stimulants tend to make him almost tooooo quiet and submissive .... to the point where his friends keep asking him "why are you sooooo quiet??" .... but this doesn't seem to be the case with your son ... which just makes me wonder whether something else is going on here ??

I am "thinking out loud" here .... but from what you are saying I just think that the stims might not be the right med ...

[CJsMOM28]

There have been times where ds is also TOO quiet on meds, especially the Ritalin based stims. He sometimes acts anti-social and withdrawn which seems depressed to me. Then again, on Ritalin(or Adderall) if someone even looks at him wrong or if he disagrees with anything a classmates says, at the lunch room table for example,even if it's none of his business, he starts an argument with them.He doesn't even realize he is being so hard to get along with!

When he is off meds he is easy to get along with, but like I mentioned earlier,he is too silly and goofy acting,then no one wants to be near him,it's as if he goes back to a six or seven year old. So I am seeing sooo many sides to him being on and off meds.I have lately felt like flipping a coin,as to whether or not to give him his meds for the day!


THANKS AGAIN ANNIE!