Narcissisum

[StrugglingAgain]

Does anyone know anything about narcissisum. DS, dh and I went to the therapist today. He suggested that we may be dealing with it and our ds. I just about lost it! I'm feeling so overwhelmed these days I don't know which end is up. He said we might even be looking at ds staying at a residential camp for awhile. I don't think so....not at nine years old! Any thoughts?

[mothercat]

While I have never really heard of it I did some looking real quick and alot of what was out there scared me..but I found a couple sites that might interest you and some excerpts. Hope it helps.. sorry it is so long

www.peaceandhealing.com/personality/narcissistic_symptoms.asp



Narcissistic Personality Disorder Symptoms
The narcissistic personality disorder is one of the top three most difficult personality
disorders to treat. It is defined as an ongoing pattern of grandiosity and need for
admiration, and a lack of empathy for others. It should be noted that it is three
times more common in males than females. These individuals have an obvious
self love, and believe they are knowledgeable and indeed expert in a wide variety
of areas. They are usually shocked when they are not praised for their efforts.
These individuals are preoccupied with success and power. They feel they are
gifted and talented. They may make statements like, “I have a photographic
memory,” when in reality they do not. They rarely admit to a mistake or
wrongdoing. They rarely apologize when the occasion arises. These individuals
insist on having the best of everything. They are grossly defensive, and
unable to look at themselves objectively. They have an inflated and false sense
of entitlement, and lack of sensitivity towards others. They feel they deserve
whatever they want or need. These individuals are extremely self-absorbed.
If they are giving, they usually give monetarily, and are unable to give
emotionally. They are viewed by others as arrogant and snobbish, act
condescendingly towards healthcare providers and therapists in the
assessment phase. It is also very common for these individuals to act
ingratiatingly and very complimentary in the first session, very similar
to traits found in sociopathic personality disorder. These individuals are
extremely sensitive to criticism, although may not show it outwardly.
When their shortcomings are targeted, however, they may appear
extremely wounded.
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groups.msn.com/BipolarDisorderWebCommunity/diagnosis.msnw?action
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Narcissism is contagious. The narcissism creates a "bubble universe",
similar to a cult. In this bubble, special rules apply. These rules do not always
correspond to outer reality. Using complex defence mechanisms, such as
projective identification, the narcissist forces his victims - spouse, mate, friend,
colleague - to "play a role" assigned to him by "God" - the narcissist.
The narcissist rewards compliance with his script and punishes any deviation
from it with severe abuse. In other words, the narcissist CONDITIONS people
around him using intimidation, positive and negative reinforcements and
feedback, ambient abuse ("gaslighting"), covert, or controlling abuse,
and overt, classical abuse. Thus conditioned, the narcissist's victims
gradually come to assimilate the narcissist's way of thinking (follies a-deux)
and his modus operandi - his methods.
You can abandon the narcissist - but the narcissist never abandons you.
He is there, deep inside your traumatic memories, lurking, waiting to act out.
You have been modified, very much like an alien snatching bodies.
samvak.tripod.com/archive40.html

samvak.tripod.com/faq1.html FAQ's page
Narcissistic Personality Disorder- Easy to understand website
www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/index.html
search for Author: Sam Vaknin www.amazon.com
How to Recognise a Narcissist - article
samvak.tripod.com/faq58.html
The Narcissist, disagreement, critisism
samvak.tripod.com/faq73.html
The Victims of the Narcissist - article
samvak.tripod.com/faq38.html
Narcissistic Parents -article
samvak.tripod.com/faq5.html
The Narcissist and His Family
samvak.tripod.com/faq22.html
The Narcissist's Mother
samvak.tripod.com/faq64.html
The N's Dead Parents
samvak.tripod.com/faq54.html
Will a Narcissistic Father ever accept you?
www.faqfarm.com/Health/Narcissism/3101
Coping with a Narcissist
samvak.tripod.com/faq4.html
samvak.tripod.com/abuse.html

- website Con·trol·ling par·ent:
www.controllingparents.com/healthie.htm
Adult or guardian who uses excessively perfectionistic, overbearing, authoritarian,
confusing, or manipulative methods of childraising. An estimated 15 million
American adults living today grew up with controlling parents.

Dysfunctional Families - Dr. Robert Burney - article
www.joy2meu.com/DysfunctionalFamilies.htm

Common Characteristics of Adult Children of Dysfunctional Families -article
acainnerpeace.ncf.ca/charac.htm

Re-Empowerment: Listening To Our Hearts -Awsome article
www.lightshifter.com/rempower.htm

A website providing education and support
for those seeking to overcome self-sabotage
www.secretswekeep.com/

Voicelessness- excellent list of articles
www.voicelessness.com/

Sociopathic Parenting - article
www.naturalchild.com/james_kimmel/sociopathic_parenting.html

"Once you are crystal clear in your perception of
the Ns true personality, you lose respect for them.
Then you can put up with a lot, because you no longer feel
the need to take what they say with any seriousness."
·´¯`·­>©<­·´¯
"Never be bullied into silence.
Never allow yourself to be made a victim.
Accept no one's definition of your life; define yourself."
Harvey Fierstein

[StrugglingAgain]

Thanks SO much for the abundance of info. It's going to take some time to read all the sites. It IS scary and he's only NINE! Maybe this therapist was looking for something to treat that he's never experienced? I dunno, but for now, I'm not doing a thing, except research. I can't find a thing about "children" having this diagnosis. The thereapist is dumbfounded that NOTHING IS HELPING and we've been in therapy for five years.

[Linda]

What does your therapist base this on s/a? This is scary stuff.........

[StrugglingAgain]

DS sorta acts like he has no feelings whatsoever. (ALL I can say is that he's very affectionate with me.) He does things like last Sat. he hit two girls in the head with a thrown ball (made both cry) and didn't seem to even care. I made him apologize. The therapist sat him in front of me yesterday and said, "LOOK at your mom and tell me what you see!" I was a wreck, crying, and ds looked, but never said a word. We've done every behavior mod you can think of (five years of it) and nothing, and I mean nothing, works. The therapist hasn't given him that dx, yet, but he told me two visits ago that there must be something else going on with him that was very, very deep.

I'm NOT shipping my ds off, but the therapist thinks that might be the only answer. He said I'm about to have a nervous breakdown. Everything I can find to read acts like there's not much one can do if that IS the dx, so what good would it do to put him in rtc? I know, you're going to say so I have a break. Let me tell you...that would be no break, I'd be devastated. Anyway, I'm going to continue my search and read, read, read.....and in the meantime maybe ds will miraculously heal. I think ds is waaaaay to young to have that kind of dx.

[mothercat]

I remember once when Jared was 6 months old he was sleeping full time but I was stuck on the two hour pattern...I asked for some sleeping pills to help straighten out my pattern prob and they wanted me to go away for six weeks...that doctor also said it was the only thing that would work....Doctors are human and not always right..take everything with a grain of salt and get as many second opinions as you need. Also make sure the DR isn't going for a grant to do a study (common in psychological practice....my Dr was out for a post partum study grant and needed guinee pigs at the time. (she also was getting a kickback from the treatment place and got sued later for it) I went to the Dollar store and bought my own sleep aid and was fine in three days. ;D Just be careful and keep reading up on it... They are just Dr's not gods.

[Linda]

This is long:
Narcissism

The narcissist has delusions of grandeur (grandiosity) and is an actor whose true character is disguised behind an image the narcissist wants to project. This character does not really like others. Rather, others are used to reflect back the image the narcissist quite cleverly imposes on the world. This behavior of selling an image is to have people reflect, admire, applaud or even detest, in order to have the narcissist feel his existence.

While the reputation of the narcissist is of a person completely taken and in love with himself, in actuality, it is mostly the opposite. The narcissist's ego is weak and lacks boundaries. He has sadistic and punishing elements to his behavior. Narcissism is frequently discussed as a type of depression.

The overall pattern of narcissistic behavior (aka inventive personality type) is unstable behavior caused by insecurity and weakness rather than any real feelings of confidence or self-esteem. Here's the list of the behaviors that make up the personality type:

Attempts to create an image and illusion of superiority to build his own low self-worth;
Has little or no empathy for other;
Fights for recognition and notoriety to fill the void of his fragile ego;
Ridicules the achievements of others;
Aspires constantly for status and recognition;
Is extremely sensitive to reactions of others and highly vulnerable to criticism and adverse judgment;
Exaggerates and boasts;
Disguises sense of inadequacy with show of arrogance and grandiosity;
Engages in hypochondria;
Facilates between excitation and high energy and emptiness;
Fantasizes of greatness, striving incessantly for perfection, genius and stardom;
Searches for the ideal partner;
Has incredible requirement for affirmation and confirmation in relationships;
Entertains an exaggerated and highly demanding concept of himself which is outside his grasp;
Uses people in relationship for his own purposes and cares little for others other than as a source of affirmation.
Operates under the pleasure principal and needs immediate gratification, resulting in poorly performing in situations requiring staying power in accomplishing difficult objectives which take time;
Anticipates attack and takes offense easily, reacting with anger. Engages in revenge fantasies;
Is self-conscious, and dependent on others for a sense of self-worth;
Attempts to overcome feeling of inadequacy by demanding attention and admiration;
Reacts with depression from failure to fulfill grandiose plans.


Many narcissists gravitate to acting, politics, and writing.

Further elements that are examined in the diagnostic process include the following:

Grandiosity as a pervasive pattern of behavior;
Need for admiration;
Complete lack of empathy;
Sense of self-importance;
Complete exaggeration of achievements and talents.
Superior attitude with no concrete achievements to warrant the accolades;
Association with people of status and achievement;
Feels entitled to special treatment;
Exploits others to achieve his need for approval;
Envious of others and expects others to be envious of him or her.
Demonstrates arrogance in the extreme

Origin of the Behavior

Narcissism generally results from extremes in child rearing, curiously from either pampering or neglectful rearing. Excessive praise of children can create feelings of superiority, of greatness being an entitlement, and seeing people as a source of praise. Similar feelings can arise from the opposite rearing where there is parental indifference and neglect. This rearing deficiency gives rise to a compensatory need for greatness, affirmation and adulation to make up for obvious deficits in child rearing. While the overly praised child may have delusions of grandeur, the neglected child may develop this outward appearance of being great, to fill the actual internal void.

[StrugglingAgain]

Well, great. Maybe we DID do some kind of parenting that brought this on. I still think someone is grasping at straws here.....and it's isn't ME.

[melody]

I work at a Mental Hospital and while I have very little experience with personality disorders in children I do have experience with personality disorders in adults, and I do not think that it would be fair for you to feel as though if your child did have one that it was caused by your parenting. You have obviously been trying to help your son for years to the best of your ability. I think that it is probably like every other mental disorder, we really know very little about what causes any kind of mental disorder and every practitioner and person who studies mental disorders is going on theories. While one theory may hold true for some people, it is not necessarily true for all people with that diagnosis. It is like Schizophrenia, Schizophrenia in and of itself, is probably actually many different disorders that just have similar symtpoms and so are grouped together. Since we do not really know what causes Schizophrenia and really not always very efficient at treating it, although advances are coming all the time, these grouped together can all be actually quite different and can respond quite different to different treatments. You are your sons Mom, you know better than any other person what you and he need, and therefore you know that sending your child away is not what either of you needs. I think that the best you can do is continue to gather information, get the support you need, as the other person said, get a second opinion, and continue to do the best you can do. I hope that you are able to find the help and information that you need.

[StrugglingAgain]

If all of you knew how good it feels to have all this support! Sometimes I feel so out there all alone with no help for my son. It seems like everyone I've taken him to gets worse. Each has a different perspective and a different solution. How do you ever know which one is right and to make sure you're just not being too sensitive to their suggestions by ignoring what they say?

[george2]

Narcissisum, anger, frustration, reaction mean one thing. I'm in here and I need a hug and a plan to see how my life fits into what everyone thinks would make me fit into the expectations I think they have for me. This is how people with a need for connection react to the world in their face. The difference is that grownups have developed tools they use to push the things that hurt them away. The little guy that used to look up at the kitchen cabinet top and see his mom way up there above it is still there.

[mskris]

S/A: Do not take this doctor's opinion as gospel. As you may know, recently, a counselor I took Taylor to suggested he might have Asperger's Syndrome. I freaked out, did a lot of reading and asking questions, and I didn't see it. We just got back from a brand new evaluation by a developmental pediatrician and she said definitely NOT asperger's. She diagnosed him with ADHD and Tourette's syndrome (both of which he was diagnosed with 4 yrs ago, so no surprises). She also thinks he may have some learning issues, and his average grades no way display his ability. She thinks he's so bright he's been able to compensate for possible LDs all these years (he's 10).

So, the point is, if you are unsure, get another opinion. Do all the reading you can, and go with your gut. Narcissism seems an awfully major diagnosis in a child so young. This seems very dramatic, although I'm not suggesting that your ds doesn't have problems, but they may not be as drastic as this guy is painting. What are his credentials?

Best wishes to you - hang in there and if you aren't comfortable with this doctor/counselor, find another one!
Kris

[Amsmom]

when i saw the title of your thread, my first thought was "narcissim in a child?" all children, by nature, are narcissistic. developmentally, they think the world revolves around them. pinning the narcissistic label on a 9 yr old, is IMHO, totally inappropriate. it also bothers me that the therapist doesnt take into consideration that your ds likely has not been on the right meds and that is why there has been no progess in 5 yrs. shouldnt the psychiatrist be making the dx, not the therapist?

[StrugglingAgain]

In five years, we've never had a psychiatrist who did ANY of the counseling. They always refer us to a child psychologist who has nothing to do with the meds. Most of the time they don't even ask what meds ds is on. I'm not even sure the psychologist sends the psychiatrist any feedback except when he did all the testing. I HATE PLAYING DOCTOR!

[Amsmom]

i know, s/a, the psychiatrist does the dx and the meds and the psychologist does the counseling. i was just wondering why the psychologist was making the dx instead of the psychiatrist.